EE/Ameraucana frustration

[Frost Homestead]

Frosthazard, that is a pretty hen.

I think you could sell eggs from that hen as long as you tell people that her parents are purebreds but she doesn't meet the standards. I think most people don't care about the standards. I think people will see that hen and want to have chicks that look like her.

Thanks Bullitt, and maybe so, I wouldn't have an issue telling people she's off colored. I would just hope that they would do the same if they ended up hatching chicks and breeding them. I only care about the standard because I want to help preserve the breed and I appreciate all of the work people have put into developing them and getting them accepted. Having said that, I still love my EE, they are great in their own way. They're very friendly enthusiastic birds

, I'm going to use my Ameraucana cockerels to make some really pretty EE too.

 

[Frost Homestead]

Doesn't look like a white sport to me. But, what do I know........

Hmmm. what color would you call her? she has no blue at all, just very light buff smudges in the white, if you look really close. It doesn't show up in any of the pictures I've taken. I was wondering if there's some chance she's splash wheaten, because I've never seen a splash wheaten hen, only roos.

 

[Illia]

Looks like a splash Wheaten to me.

 

[Frost Homestead]

Looks like a splash Wheaten to me.

Thanks for your input Illia, honestly I would be much happier if she's a splash wheaten. I've just never seen one so I never had anything to compare her to, I can easily spot a SW roo but I got all kinds of different input about what people thought of her color so I didn't know what to think. Maybe since I enjoy her color so much I should work on improving them

 

[dainerra]

I stand corrected. Must work the same as Blue and Black Ameraucanas - and, no doubt, benefits from some understanding of genetics!!

I must say I completely agree. If you want show quality, you should go to a breeder. If I order from a hatchery, I do not expect a chicken to perfectly match the standards, but I expect it to be pretty close.

I also agree that the AKC has ruined many dog breeds, particularly hunting dog breeds. For example, the Irish Setter used to be a good hunting dog. But people liked the long hair and bred them for show, which ruined them as hunting dogs. That is why there are now show lines and hunting lines for many breeds.

By the way, Labrador Retrievers come in black, chocolate, and yellow, according to the AKC. You can breed any of the colors together and can possibly get any of the three colors out. In the discussion before I was talking about a half black/half yellow Labrador Retriever. It wouldn't meet AKC standards, but it might be a darn good hunting dog.

The best dog I have ever seen was a half Labrador Retriever/half Irish Setter (a mutt). I am guessing that many of the "mutt" chickens might be some of the best chickens, and they would be more resistant to disease.

Again, standards only apply to someone claiming to breed to the standard or breeding to show where that standard is recognized. These breeding organizations only make rules that apply to there members. If you go buy a AKC whatever you are expecting a dog that is to the AKC breed standard. When you buy one that is not AKC why would you expect it to adhere to the AKC standard.

If you buy a Ameraucana that the breeder says it to standard or show quality you can expect it to be to standard. If it is not throw a fit. If you buy a Ameraucana that they do not claim to be to standard or show quality then you cant expect it to be.

It would be different if the Ameraucana breeding club had invented the name an copyrighted it but the name predates the current APA standard breed an predates the breeding club so nether the APA or the breeding club has authority over the name or how it is used.


Personal opinion... The AKC an the like standards an shows were the worst thing to ever happen to most dog breeds.

www.junkdna.com for those who have too much time on their hands and an interest in breeding genetics. The short story is, genes never disappear. If 500 years ago in your Wheaten Ameraucana's ancestory was a black chicken, then she could hatch out a solid black chick. If in her distant ancestory are jungle fowl, then it is possible that one of her offspring could have some traits of those birds. These "junk genes" are just covered up by the sheer number of genes that are out there. Think of it like the lottery - your chances of winning are less than being struck by lightning, but people do win. The genes are the same principle. Selective breeding for certain traits mean that the "good" genes are the most likely ones to be passed on, but the other ones are still there. There are even scientists who theorize that it would be possible (if you disected the DNA) to build a T-rex from chickens.

A couple of pages ago, someone mentioned the Dutch stallion. Yes, unless you paid your money for the registration of the stallion, the foals can't be registered. No one would argue that the foals are magically NOT the same breed. Just that they are registered. All the registry is is the paperwork keeper. They hold onto the studbooks so that owners and breeders can trace the lines back and prove the ancestory. If I don't send in my $35 to the AKC, then my dog isn't registered. He's still purebred though. His bloodline didn't just disappear.

The same with AKC. All they are is the paperwork keepers. The standards aren't written by the AKC, or even enforced by them. The standards were actually written by the original founders of the breed. The standards aren't even written by show people - they were written by the hunters and herders and founders of the breed. Now, have bad breeders ruined the breed? Absolutely. Even more damaging is "breeding for extremes" If the dog should have a long coat according to the standard, there are people who believe that a LONGER coat would be better. Yes, that type of thing gets rewarded in the show ring and encourages the "more" breeders to try for an even longer coat. The bad breeders focus on this to the exclusion of everything else.
It's not just show people, however. Take my breed, the German Shepherd. You have some sport/working breeders who think that if a dog needs to be driven to be a good worker, then more drive is better. They have created dogs so wound up and hyper that you have to lock them away when not working because they are insane. It's physically impossible for these dogs to settle down; the only time they stop moving and pacing is when they go to sleep. Who wants a dog like that? They are so crazy that half of them can't even be used for working - to work you have to concentrate and these dogs are just too over-the-top to settle to a task.

It's also been proven many times that mutts aren't any healthier than purebred dogs. Why? because they are the same species and most dog breeds have similar diseases and problems. Take hip dysplasia. If you have a mutt from breeds that carry that problem, then the chances of the mutt having it are exactly the same as a purebred. Now, if you cross a breed A with ZERO chance of hip problems with a breed B that does, then you get a mutt with less chances of the disease than B, but MORE chances than A. So, you still haven't solved any problems.
Hybrid vigor is tossed around, but to get truly hybrid vigor you need two completely separate varieties. Dogs and chickens are too genetically similar for that to happen. Even dogs and wolves are too close to get hybrid vigor.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

A couple of pages ago, someone mentioned the Dutch stallion. Yes, unless you paid your money for the registration of the stallion, the foals can't be registered. No one would argue that the foals are magically NOT the same breed. Just that they are registered. All the registry is is the paperwork keeper. They hold onto the studbooks so that owners and breeders can trace the lines back and prove the ancestory. If I don't send in my $35 to the AKC, then my dog isn't registered. He's still purebred though. His bloodline didn't just disappear.

But the point is you can't SELL the horse as a "Dutch Warmblood" or show the horse as a "Dutch Warmblood". If it hasn't met the standards set out by the governing organizations it technically ISN'T a "Dutch Warmblood" even though it may have Dutch Warmbloods in its background. In the case of an uber expensive horse, it IS considered fraud to represent an unregistered horse as a "Dutch Warmblood" and lawsuits can result. I bet the same thing happens with dogs too.

And breed registries are more than paper-keepers. They are also working to ensure that breed standards are maintained - size, height, athletic ability, etc., and sometimes even colour. To ensure that the breed doesn't turn into a bunch of disconnected, dissimilar junk.

It is the VERY same thing with chickens. If they don't meet the standard ....

whatever those standards may be, they shouldn't carry the name.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Quote:

It is the VERY same thing with chickens. If they don't meet the standard ....

whatever those standards may be, they shouldn't carry the name.

I have some hatchery silkies out there that don't meet standards. Does that mean that they aren't silkies? I breed buff silkies. In an effort to get a nice dark buff some black was added way back in the past. It manifests as smuttiness in the feather color. This last hatch I did with a new rooster threw a ton of buff chickens with black tails and topknots. They in no way meet the color standard for buff silkies. Does this mean that they are not silkies? Of course not. They are just pet quality silkies and not show quality.
The same can be said of pretty much any hatchery bird. It is likely that they will not meet standards somehow. Does this mean that my welsummer isn't a welsummer and my buff orp isn't a buff orp? No, it means that they are off standard, hatchery quality birds. Now, if the hatchery had sold me welsummers that were half welsummer and half buff orp, then they would not be welsummers. But they sold me pure birds, just not great quality birds (so far as confirmation goes- they actually have great personalities and are tremendous egg layers). They do NOT sell pure ameraucanas, although they label them as such. This is our first hurdle- to get the hatcheries to call EEs what they are. It is going to be harder to do that if we allow EE to continue to be a catch all phrase for off colored ameraucanas.

An EE is half ameraucana.
An ameraucana comes from two pure ameraucana parents even if the color is not standard. They are just non-standard ameraucanas. Technically this is what all the new colors are anyway. We can call them project birds, but chocolate and lavendar and all the other new colors are non-standard approved AMs. We don't say that they are EEs, do we? Where is the magic line semantically between non-standard color and project bird?

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote:

The Ameraucana folks have been generous enough to provide us with a VERY catchy name for all our non-standard, half-breed, off-coloured, mutts. They call them "Easter Eggers". So we don't have to refer to them as non-standard or not show quality because we can call them Easter Eggers.

From the Ameraucanas Breeders Club: What is an Easter Egger ....

"The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken or Easter Egger as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed descriptions as defined in the APA and/or ABA standards. Further, even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken."

All those "project" birds and "off-colored" birds and "non-standard" birds you are referring to are, technically, Easter Eggers - and most responsible and knowledgeable breeders are quite prepared to acknowledge that - because they understand the difference. (And they often won't sell "project" birds because they are working toward a specific goal of getting them accepted so breeding must be controlled.)

It doesn't matter a bit if both parents ARE Ameraucanas. If they don't fit the standard - see above! Like I said earlier, you can call them whatever you want. The problem comes when someone attempts to pass off non-standard birds as "Ameraucanas" - because they aren't. Regardless of who their parents are. (Maybe they will be one day but they aren't yet.)

The BIGGEST hurdle, it seems, is getting people to understand what is and what isn't an "Ameraucana".

 

[chickened]

As with any breeding if you are the only one there when a bird mates and witness it you can call it anything you like. This is why we have a standard and must adhere to it otherwise we have nothing concrete and as I said you can call it anything you like but do not call it an ameraucana that is taken by a higher standard. And for the record ameraucanas prior to recognition were mutts like any other current un-recognized types. There has to be a line of demarcation drawn somewhere.

 

[Illia]

Just gonna throw in my two cents -



If it has white soles, white skin, and slate/black/pale blueish white legs, beard/muffs, pea comb, and a body somewhat or well fitting to the SOP and lays blue or blue-green eggs, I think it's perfectly fine to call it an Ameraucana. Whatever color it comes in. After all, there are indeed "Ameraucanas" perfectly showable with non-recognized colors. Splash, Lavender Wheaten, Lavender, Splash Wheaten, Mottled, Blue Mottled, Blue Silver . . . .

Consider that any other breed is also showable as an "AOV" color as long as the rest entirely fits the breed description.

So of course, that leaves out the commonly confused EE's with green or yellow legs, yellow soles, yellow skin, gamey type bodies, green or brown/pink eggs, very white or blue earlobes, single or other type combs, etc.

It's the same with any other breed. If it has characteristics that seriously deviate or disqualify it from the original Standard of Perfection for the breed, what's the point in calling it that breed? Especially when you look at other breeds with breeds somewhat similar to them, the same thing would be said. If I had a Production Red (hatchery RIR) I'd still call it by breed, an RIR, but if it were an orangey color or really did look refined in type, or had excess black in the neck, or white in the earlobes, or white in the tail, or wrong color shanks, etc - I wouldn't call it such. Because chances are it is a mutt or a New Hampshire or something else.


Now, some Ameraucanas do have some faults that are seriously questionable such as green eggs or lack of beard/muffs but as long as you know the rest all fits the standard and its parents were both fitting Ameraucanas, I'd say it is still fine but your bird does either A) need to be a pet for bred for other purposes than an Ameraucana or B) food.


My two cents.