Eggbound after sour crop -> euthanize?

[LindaNL]

Last week my 2.5yr old hen had a sour crop. We treated it by not feeding her for 2 days, and letting her vomit a few times. After 3 days she seemed cured, the other chickens still accepted her, so I let her back with the flock. The morning after I realized she wasn't eating...

I got her inside, massaged her crop, and suddenly I noticed that her abdomen was hard, it seemed like an egg was in there. So I examined her by inserting my finger in her vent. And yes, there was an OTHER egg (so 1 egg close to vent, and 1 in abdomen).

We gave her a bath with epsom salt, we put vaseline in her vent, we gave her calcium, we massaged her abdomen gently, put her inside (warm) and made a nice (dark) nest for her. NOTHING worked. Yesterday we went to the vet, he put some more lubricant in her vent and gave her some more calcium ($185). He said it would be very risky to get the eggs out, and suggested to give it 2 or 3 more days. Now she is eggbound for 5 days already (maybe more)!!!!

Our hen doesn't eat anymore, she does drink a bit. Her poop is solid in the morning, but watery during the day (she doesn't poop that often though). When I insert my finger in her vent it really feels like I'm touching skin, I'm not sure if the egg that is close to her vent is the first one that have to come out. Maybe the egg is pushing against her vent, while it's blocking the egg in her abdomen. Do I make sense? And could that be the case?

The hen seems to sleep a lot, but comes out of her nest sometimes (walks around, tail upright, washes herself,..). She doesn't really seem to try to push the eggs out . I think it might be time to euthanize her (by the vet), but my husband thinks we should wait some more. Is there anything more we could do for her, or is this just a matter of time....

Thanks!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Are you sure it is egg binding? The stress of sour crop and the fasting is likely to stop ovulation. I don't think an egg bound bird can survive 5 days without passing the egg.

 

[LindaNL]

Yes, that's what I was thinking... But I really do feel the eggs though: I can move it and the shape is the same. When I insert my finger, I feel it too and can move it a bit. I told the story to the vet and he did treat her for egg binding..

She hasn't laid an egg for a long time (a month maybe?), none of my chickens are laying. And now there are 2 inside of her?! It really doesn't seem to make any sense :S...

 

[Wyorp Rock]

You are feeling 2 eggs?

I can only speculate, but what you are feeling is probably an egg mass or tumor in the abdomen due to reproductive disorder/internal laying like Salpingitis, Egg Yolk Peritonitis, cancer or tumors. These can cause some crop problems - masses, tumors, fluid, infection, ect. can cause a full or partial blockage on the intestines and internal organs. Essentially nothing is moving or moving very little.

If you have a vet, they can xray to look for masses or tumors.

I'm very sorry. I had a hen that started with a bloated/hard belly, eventually one thing lead to another, crop issues, not eating, not pooping, etc. I decided to put her out of her misery. I did an informal examination and found that she had masses in the abdomen that were blocking the intestines. There was nothing I could have done, but being able to see the cause (heartbreaking as it was) gave me some peace of mind.

If she does pass, sending her to your state lab for some answers may help or if you are up to it, examine her like some of us do at home. Take photos if you wish and post them - we can (hopefully) help you decipher what you see.

 

[LindaNL]

Wow, I can't believe the vet charged me $185 for just the lubricant and calcium. You guys didn't even see the chicken and already helped me so much more than the vet..

I just tried to really feel the shape of the egg in her abdomen. The top and bottom seem to be the shape of an egg, but the rest just doesn't feel like an egg. When I massage her crop and abdomen, or give her a bath, I hear lots of gutsounds. When I put her on the ground again, she will immediately poop (see picture).

I'm pretty sure an xray to look for masses or tumors will unfortunately cost me too much , and if I know she has it, I will have to euthanize her anyway.. I could not cut her open once she is euthanized, but I'm sure my husband could do it (he had to cut in human corpses for his education).

I just wonder, if she is internally laying, why were there never any problems? She layed lots of eggs (more than the other chickens), and was never ever sick. And now, at the age of 2.5 she suddenly started to lay internally? Could there have been something that provoced it (like molting, cold weather, lice, food,..)? And should I be worried about the rest of my flok?

Thanks!

 

[Wyorp Rock]

When was the last time she laid an egg?
Is she molting?

Oh, how I wish I had great answers for you.
I'm going to have to find my bookmarks where I explain this better. In the meantime if you want to view @speckledhen thread and video on the subject that may help a little.


https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ions-my-youtube-video-graphic-photos.1201052/

 

[LindaNL]

Yes she is molting. The whole flock stopped laying about a month ago! We don't use an additional light during the night, so I figure this is just their 'resting period'.. (I hope!)

Thanks for the link, I understand that there is nothing to prevent it and nothing to do about it... Too bad that chickens are bred to produce (too) many eggs. I became to love chickens, even if they don't lay eggs!

 

[speckledhen]

Wow, I can't believe the vet charged me $185 for just the lubricant and calcium. You guys didn't even see the chicken and already helped me so much more than the vet..

I just tried to really feel the shape of the egg in her abdomen. The top and bottom seem to be the shape of an egg, but the rest just doesn't feel like an egg. When I massage her crop and abdomen, or give her a bath, I hear lots of gutsounds. When I put her on the ground again, she will immediately poop (see picture).

I'm pretty sure an xray to look for masses or tumors will unfortunately cost me too much , and if I know she has it, I will have to euthanize her anyway.. I could not cut her open once she is euthanized, but I'm sure my husband could do it (he had to cut in human corpses for his education).

I just wonder, if she is internally laying, why were there never any problems? She layed lots of eggs (more than the other chickens), and was never ever sick. And now, at the age of 2.5 she suddenly started to lay internally? Could there have been something that provoced it (like molting, cold weather, lice, food,..)? And should I be worried about the rest of my flok?

Thanks!

That is the age you start seeing it happen. I lost my first hatchery hen at just barely over 2 years old and then, they began dropping like flies.

As far as the vet goes, I know a few great ones, but there are the others who truly should refer you to someone who knows chickens better than they do. Chicken owners often do know more than the vet about their birds after years of keeping them and researching and learning.

What you may have been feeling are the cheesy masses that are indicative of internal laying, not actual eggs, per se. If she is a hatchery girl, it's actually very, very common. It's a hormone/genetic based malfunction, nothing you can cure or prevent and hatchery stock has sucky genetics for the most part. I've lost maybe 16 hens to that and/or egg yolk peritonitis and of those, only two were breeder quality hens. Now, I have 8, 9, 10 and almost 11 year old hens, some still laying, but none are hatchery girls.

This video that Wyorp Rock mentioned should help you understand a lot more about this issue:

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Yes she is molting. The whole flock stopped laying about a month ago! We don't use an additional light during the night, so I figure this is just their 'resting period'.. (I hope!)

Thanks for the link, I understand that there is nothing to prevent it and nothing to do about it... Too bad that chickens are bred to produce (too) many eggs. I became to love chickens, even if they don't lay eggs!

@LindaNL I'm sorry about just getting back to you.

I'm very sorry about your hen - I agree with @speckledhen you may be feeling cheesy masses like Salpingitis. We tend to lump EYP, Ascites, Salpingitis, tumors and cancer into "reproductive/internal laying" since the symptoms can be similar and no one can know for sure which one without further inspection.

O.K. I found some of my stuff - I have so many notes, I get lost sometimes -
Here's one that might be similar to your girl - OP felt an egg in the belly - there are necropsy photos in this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/fluid-in-belly-with-egg-floating.1202391/
Same OP also video taped her necropsy - if you are interested- it's found here on post#347 https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-necropsy-photos.823961/page-35#post-19084262

These are 2 of my posts from earlier this year - they may help explain a bit better.
Hope they help.

Internal laying/reproductive disorders are not the same as being egg bound. Egg binding is where an egg is literally stuck or bound in the oviduct - it can kill within 48hrs if the egg is not removed.

Internal laying is when egg yolk, whites and/or whole eggs with shells drop into the abdominal cavity (see the necropsy photos in the links previously posted - those egg yolks are in the abdominal cavity). Basically what happens is when the egg is released from the ovary it either misses the "chute" or it can go most of the way through the oviduct and for some reason travels back up the oviduct and is deposited in the abdominal cavity. Necropsy has revealed whole shelled eggs in there...it's interesting to look at, but I'm certain terribly painful for the hen as these things fester, cause infection and just make her sick.

See the Infundibulum - it is does not fully enclose the ovaries, there is space between the "follicles" and the "chute" - the yolk has to drop precisely into that "chute" and travel the length of the reproductive tract where it gathers the white and gets a shell, etc., where it is finally laid. The yolk, whites and/or whole egg can go into the abdomen through that opening. Make sense?
View attachment 1089374

I'm very sorry, if her abdomen is swollen like that she most likely has an internal laying/reproductive disorder like Egg Yolk Peritonitis, Ascites, cancer or tumors. The swelling is probably from egg matter/masses, tumors, fluid or it can be a combination.

None of these conditions are curable - there is nothing wrong with trying to treat her. Some people do have had limited success in prolonging life by draining, giving antibiotics or other treatment - there are a lot of factors at play with reproductive disorders.

If you can keep her hydrated and she is able to eliminate waste and her crop is emptying she may keep going for a while. A hen with a purple comb is having difficulty with oxygen uptake - if she is in distress, won't eat/drink and can't poop - then it's kinder to end her suffering.

I am not trying to discourage you from giving her supportive care/treatment and making her comfortable. A lot of us have been through this, so I know the heartache of loss, trying to treat and the feeling of helplessness when a hen is this sick. The ones that I have opened up once they were put down - seeing what was in the abdomen - there was nothing I could have done to fix it.

I do hope you are able to give her some comfort - please keep us posted.

If you are interested in seeing/finding out what may be going on internally with her - you can check out these links - there are graphic photos and video of necropsy just to let you know.

Video discussing Internal Laying -https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/internal-laying-other-reproductive-malfunctions-my-youtube-video-graphic-photos.1201052/

Video Salpingitis - https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-necropsy-photos.823961/page-35#post-19084262 Same poster has photos here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/fluid-in-belly-with-egg-floating.1202391/

This one is Peritonitis - but she did have fluid pulled as well - note the eggs that are in the belly - this can make it feel like it has fluid - the eggs can eventually become like pus (some is seen in the photos) and are a breeding ground for bacteria/infection https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/egg-yolk-peritonitis.1154532/#post-18103856

This is Salpingitis - some fluids in the belly can accompany this, but most likely the belly feels fairly firm https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/internal-layer-necropsy-warning-graphic-pics.635524/

This one is recent - initial the OP thought possibly flystrike , but when investigated further it become clear the hen had internal problems - this was also Salpingitis - but she reported the belly felt like it had fluid in it https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/fly-strike-treatments.1192200/

This one discusses Ascites, has a few photos that Kathy posted - note the fluid - it may give you some information https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ascites-in-desperate-need-of-some-help-and-guidance.853726/

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Wow, I can't believe the vet charged me $185 for just the lubricant and calcium. You guys didn't even see the chicken and already helped me so much more than the vet..

I just tried to really feel the shape of the egg in her abdomen. The top and bottom seem to be the shape of an egg, but the rest just doesn't feel like an egg. When I massage her crop and abdomen, or give her a bath, I hear lots of gutsounds. When I put her on the ground again, she will immediately poop (see picture).

I'm pretty sure an xray to look for masses or tumors will unfortunately cost me too much , and if I know she has it, I will have to euthanize her anyway.. I could not cut her open once she is euthanized, but I'm sure my husband could do it (he had to cut in human corpses for his education).

I just wonder, if she is internally laying, why were there never any problems? She layed lots of eggs (more than the other chickens), and was never ever sick. And now, at the age of 2.5 she suddenly started to lay internally? Could there have been something that provoced it (like molting, cold weather, lice, food,..)? And should I be worried about the rest of my flok?

Thanks!

You could have used olive oil for a lubricant and oyster shell for calcium. However, since they haven't been laying, I surmise that she is getting more than enough calcium already in the layer feed and possibly excessive calcium.
I had an egg bound hen once that I lubricated and gave her a hot bath. She passed the egg but 2 days later she was egg bound again. I took her to the vet who gave her an anti-inflammatory. Didn't help and she died the next day. I won't take another to a vet for egg binding (at least not that vet)