EM-1 (effective microorganism) & bokashi for chickens

[LindaB220]

Hey pdirt, I like that you upgraded your formula in post #8. I've been feeding fermented feed w/ACV but I've been waiting for the AEM to be ready to start transitioning over. I have my chicks (6 wks old) out in the coop and with the deep litter I'm going to start spraying down the area. They have been on FF since day 1 so I've never had any trouble with the poop or smell. It just disintegrates.into the litter. I'll let you know how it works. Thanks for all your help. Linda

 

[pdirt]

Linda...As long as the pH of your activated EM (AEM) is below 4.0, go ahead and start using it. I don't also think it is necessary to wait 2+ weeks for the bokashi feed to be ready, you can start using it right away. At first it will be mostly moistened feed and will ferment more as the days go by.

I've thought more about feeding FF. I think that if the ff is very acidic (less then 4.0 pH) it's best to also offer dry feed. It's not healthy to feed a diet of only highly acidic feed. If the feed smells sour, it's a sign of high acidity. I'm no expert on chicken nutrition but my common sense tells me it's not wise to feed only acidic feed. If they are free ranging a fair amount, then that probably will help balance out the ff.

We hatched some new chicks. They had only ff for the first two weeks of their life then one day I gave them first ff and they ignored it. Then I put out some dry feed and they gobbled it up. For the next few days they mostly ignored the ff and ate mostly dry feed. I like to think they know what's best for them.

 

[LindaB220]

Linda...As long as the pH of your activated EM (AEM) is below 4.0, go ahead and start using it. I don't also think it is necessary to wait 2+ weeks for the bokashi feed to be ready, you can start using it right away. At first it will be mostly moistened feed and will ferment more as the days go by.

I've thought more about feeding FF. I think that if the ff is very acidic (less then 4.0 pH) it's best to also offer dry feed. It's not healthy to feed a diet of only highly acidic feed. If the feed smells sour, it's a sign of high acidity. I'm no expert on chicken nutrition but my common sense tells me it's not wise to feed only acidic feed. If they are free ranging a fair amount, then that probably will help balance out the ff.

We hatched some new chicks. They had only ff for the first two weeks of their life then one day I gave them first ff and they ignored it. Then I put out some dry feed and they gobbled it up. For the next few days they mostly ignored the ff and ate mostly dry feed. I like to think they know what's best for them.

I don't think that's entirely correct. Remember, these are kids. They are gonna eat candy if it's available. Once they are on ff, they never look back. But they are spoiled. If I feed leftovers with fruit, veggies, meat or whatever they love it. The next day they wait and nibble and wait for the good stuff. Remember, you are the parent.

 

[pdirt]

I don't think that's entirely correct.  Remember, these are kids.  They are gonna eat candy if it's available.  Once they are on ff, they never look back.   But they are spoiled.   If I feed leftovers with fruit, veggies, meat or whatever they love it.  The  next day they wait and nibble and wait for the good stuff.    Remember, you are the parent.    

My experience has been different. When I first put my adults on EM-FF that's all they wanted for a while. I put dry food out for them as well and they wouldn't eat it. But after a few weeks of the ff, they started eating dry food in addition to ff. Some folks seem to think their birds only want ff and maybe that is true. Like I said before, I am not a chicken nutrition expert. But based upon my observations, I am not so sure it's good idea to ONLY feed ff and to give the birds no other option, especially if they are not free-ranged.

I have observed similar behavior when I have fed my birds EM-treated water. I gave them both EM water and plain water. For nearly three weeks, they only drank the EM water. Or at least they only drank a little of the plain water. Then they started drinking more plain water and seemed to still drink some EM water but just much less. Other folks I have talked to who have also been using EM with farm animals (some for much longer than I have) have noticed a similar pattern. Who knows why but one theory is the animals know they need the EM to get their bodies acclimated to a certain level and then only need maintenance doses. One would only notice this pattern if they were offering, free choice, both EM and plain food/water. (Or plainer ff). As with all thing, ymmv

 

[LindaB220]

My experience has been different. When I first put my adults on EM-FF that's all they wanted for a while. I put dry food out for them as well and they wouldn't eat it. But after a few weeks of the ff, they started eating dry food in addition to ff. Some folks seem to think their birds only want ff and maybe that is true. Like I said before, I am not a chicken nutrition expert. But based upon my observations, I am not so sure it's good idea to ONLY feed ff and to give the birds no other option, especially if they are not free-ranged.

I have observed similar behavior when I have fed my birds EM-treated water. I gave them both EM water and plain water. For nearly three weeks, they only drank the EM water. Or at least they only drank a little of the plain water. Then they started drinking more plain water and seemed to still drink some EM water but just much less. Other folks I have talked to who have also been using EM with farm animals (some for much longer than I have) have noticed a similar pattern. Who knows why but one theory is the animals know they need the EM to get their bodies acclimated to a certain level and then only need maintenance doses. One would only notice this pattern if they were offering, free choice, both EM and plain food/water. (Or plainer ff). As with all thing, ymmv

You may be correct. You certainly know a lot about EM-1 I wonder what if any difference there is in making feed with ACV. I'm going to start spraying down the coop after we get through these tornado like days this week. Got my AEM made and ready. I feed the ff 2x daily along with mulberry leaves and scraps from leftovers. They are so healthy. I will not put out dry , only throwing them a couple of handfuls of scratch daily. IMO

 

[pdirt]

You may be correct. You certainly know a lot about EM-1 I wonder what if any difference there is in making feed with ACV. I'm going to start spraying down the coop after we get through these tornado like days this week. Got my AEM made and ready. I feed the ff 2x daily along with mulberry leaves and scraps from leftovers. They are so healthy. I will not put out dry , only throwing them a couple of handfuls of scratch daily. IMO

Night and day difference between using EM-1 and ACV. Here's part of the reason why:

EM-1: Lactobacillus bacteria (aka "probiotics" and the ones that create lactic acid), beneficial yeasts and Purple Non Sulfur Bacteria (these are the "magical" bacteria of EM)

ACV: primarily Acetobacter (converts alcohol into acetic acid)

As you can see, ACV has no probiotics. The fermentation process that ACV goes through does result in some beneficial live enzymes which I am not 100% sure but I think EM also creates live enzymes. Anyone making a home-brew EM-like culture...unless they REALLY know what they are doing...is unlikely to have much of the "magical" Purple bacteria. These Purple bacteria are the ones that are primarily responsible for eating and digesting (often into healthful substances like antioxidants) nasty things like chicken poop and other stinky things. They clean up, in harmony with the lactobacillus. The yeasts are there primarily as a food source for the PNSB and LABs (purple non sulfur bac. and lactic acid bac.)

You don't need ACV to make fermented feed. It won't hurt and will add a bit of enzymes to the feed. Mostly it is used to lower the pH of a new batch. It is not really a "starter". A starter, in my book, must contain fermenting organisms, such as LABs. If all you want is to lower the pH of a new batch are not using a starter, ANY KIND of vinegar will work, even the cheapest white vinegar.

As for fermenting feed, EM will ferment the feed much more thoroughly than the plain method (with or without vinegar). I can't prove it (I don't have a lab or care to spend $$$ for lab tests), but go to the EMRO (.org?) site and you can fill your brain with the research that's offered there. Providing a portion of an animal's diet with some fermented food, regardless of the fermentation process, is a no-brainer in my book. EM fermented food will just be "more bang for your buck". The guy I learned from to make EM-FF claimed (he is a scientist, so I assume he tested this) that he would buy the cheapest/crappiest chicken feed he could get his hands on and by the time he was done fermenting it with EM (he used a 4-month process), that it was more nutrient dense than a regular fermented (non-EM) organic chicken feed. I don't care if he is right or not, my "gut feeling" (which has rarely been wrong) about his theory is probably correct. I'd love to see scientific results of this someday.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Very interesting thread. Subscribing so I can find it again.

 

[LindaB220]

Night and day difference between using EM-1 and ACV. Here's part of the reason why:

EM-1: Lactobacillus bacteria (aka "probiotics" and the ones that create lactic acid), beneficial yeasts and Purple Non Sulfur Bacteria (these are the "magical" bacteria of EM)

ACV: primarily Acetobacter (converts alcohol into acetic acid)

As you can see, ACV has no probiotics. The fermentation process that ACV goes through does result in some beneficial live enzymes which I am not 100% sure but I think EM also creates live enzymes. Anyone making a home-brew EM-like culture...unless they REALLY know what they are doing...is unlikely to have much of the "magical" Purple bacteria. These Purple bacteria are the ones that are primarily responsible for eating and digesting (often into healthful substances like antioxidants) nasty things like chicken poop and other stinky things. They clean up, in harmony with the lactobacillus. The yeasts are there primarily as a food source for the PNSB and LABs (purple non sulfur bac. and lactic acid bac.)

You don't need ACV to make fermented feed. It won't hurt and will add a bit of enzymes to the feed. Mostly it is used to lower the pH of a new batch. It is not really a "starter". A starter, in my book, must contain fermenting organisms, such as LABs. If all you want is to lower the pH of a new batch are not using a starter, ANY KIND of vinegar will work, even the cheapest white vinegar.

As for fermenting feed, EM will ferment the feed much more thoroughly than the plain method (with or without vinegar). I can't prove it (I don't have a lab or care to spend $$$ for lab tests), but go to the EMRO (.org?) site and you can fill your brain with the research that's offered there. Providing a portion of an animal's diet with some fermented food, regardless of the fermentation process, is a no-brainer in my book. EM fermented food will just be "more bang for your buck". The guy I learned from to make EM-FF claimed (he is a scientist, so I assume he tested this) that he would buy the cheapest/crappiest chicken feed he could get his hands on and by the time he was done fermenting it with EM (he used a 4-month process), that it was more nutrient dense than a regular fermented (non-EM) organic chicken feed. I don't care if he is right or not, my "gut feeling" (which has rarely been wrong) about his theory is probably correct. I'd love to see scientific results of this someday.

Very, very

 

[thailand]

I'm also subscribing to this thread!

Anyone know if it's ok to give EM in water for sour crop? I'm wondering if this is a good idea or not because of the yeasts in EM?

Have a sick chicken who has only just started to be 'on the mend' and is drinking ACV and eating yoghurt only at the moment.

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts....thanks so much!

 

[pdirt]

I'm also subscribing to this thread!

Anyone know if it's ok to give EM in water for sour crop?  I'm wondering if this is a good idea or not because of the yeasts in EM?

Have a sick chicken who has only just started to be 'on the mend' and is drinking ACV and eating yoghurt only at the moment. 

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts....thanks so much!  

I've not dealt with sour crop. My understanding from reading on BYC you want to offer probiotics, but I think I recall that vinegar is a no no, because there is no probiotics and the strong acid nature of it can worsen the problem. Fairly diluted EM should help in that sense...it's acidic but most of the probiotics are.

Let us know how it goes.