Embden Geese- Need some help/advice, please!

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

We got 2 Embden Geese last year. From what I can tell we got a male & female due to coloring & research on that.
They're names are Twiggy (m) & Piney (f). When they were younger they wanted to be with us, even jumped out of the fencing to come find me across the yard when they were like 2-3wks old! lol Was crazy.

Nowadays they've become considerately more & more aggressive. They've bit my son 2x leaving marks; usually it's the F doing it. But they've also bit the boots of some of my other children & scared (lightly hurt their toes).
I could understand it with our children some, but now they're repetitively doing it to me & the spouse! If I'm cleaning the coop, they're deafening at their constant fussing & hissing. I will have to block them out.
We have to block them out when gathering eggs, as they will bite the children who's job it is to gather them.

It's to the point they're up for sale. I didn't want to do that but they're also quite the pair of bullies. They hog the water sources from the ducks. They've even started biting some of the hens that are in the nesting boxes. Not sure why.

All that to say, now I do know that mating season is coming soon. I knew they're going to be territorial. But with the aggression they've already started pre-mating season, I'm concerned they're going to be untouchable.
They're currently in the hoop tractor, awaiting a buyer.

So, while I will sell them for the betterment of the family, we did enjoy them when they were younger. We also would like to offer their offspring for sale on our homestead. So I am kind of torn on selling them.

Is there anything we can do to calm them down? Make them more friendly?

I would also love to know if we truly do have M & F or it's two males?
We have seen M mount & "mate" F, but we wouldn't tell 100% if deed was done. If you know what I mean. But the female really, really fights him mounting her. I don't know if that's normal, or not though, as again still new to this part of geese.

Any advice?? I'll post pics in the comments of them when they were babies. Maybe yall can tell me sex that way. (It's what I went off.)

 

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

Here’s the photos.

 

[Goosebaby]

Well to start with I think you may have two of the men folk there. Sometimes it’s hard to say with geese but the way they’re both posturing in that last pic and the fact that they’re both very trim in the undercarriage makes me think you have two ganders. Females usually get a poofy, almost swollen looking rear as they’re gearing up for laying season.

Ganders will form wonderful strong bonds with each other, during breeding season they’ll squabble on occasion, but will quickly make up like nothing happened. One of the struggles with bonded ganders is that they’ll feed on each others moods and they’ll be protective and defensive of each other and feed off that energy, meaning they’ll egg each other on. This can increase their aggression in theory. I say “in theory” because I have a few pairs of bonded ganders and they do egg each other on, however depending on the personality of a female goose they can do the same or worse. Some girls love drama and they can egg a gander on much worse with the rage cackle.

Secondly they are hormonal and territorial this time of year and there isn’t anything you can do about that, they just can’t help it. Breeding season starts in winter and lasts until just before molt.
You can mitigate their aggression but that can take time. If you’re considered one of their clique they’ll be friendly but they’ll also get defensive of you against others. Becoming one of their clique is simple but it can take time and involves spending a lot of time with them, treats can help.
There is an issue and that is that anyone who spends less time with them will be deemed as an outsider or worse, a rival. Strangers are scary and they’ll usually avoid them, but rivals must be run off!

Generally it’s not a good idea to house geese with chickens or ducks. Geese can cohabitate with them so long as the others don’t infringe on their personal space, and that space gets wider in breeding season. When geese are stuck in an enclosed area where the object of their annoyance can’t get away altercations can turn deadly. Ducks in particular can be very bossy and sassy which can lead to the geese being bullied by the ducks because in the bird world attitude is often worth more than size, however when pushed too far a goose will finally retaliate and a duck can’t survive an enraged goose.
It’s best to have geese in their own bedtime shed or coop at night separate from the ducks and chickens. Out during the day they can be in a run together as long as the run is big enough that everyone has space to move around and keep out of each others hair…or feathers.

It’s best to have two or more baby pools so that everyone can get bathtime at different times, if the geese try to breed the ducks you will need to ensure that the geese don’t have access to the duck pool. If you choose to keep them you should get two females and consider a larger run for them all or an exclusive run for the geese.

 

[Goosebaby]

The best way to determine gender at this age is dna testing, they’re too big for a vent check to really be feasible at this point.

Another way is observing their behaviors. Ganders tend to be the ones to approach first and will stand between a person and the goose/geese under their protection, this gets tricky with multiple ganders because the more dominant personality will do this to the more submissive personality regardless of sex.

So another method is looking for female behaviors in particular, ganders and hens will sometimes mount each other or the same sex when they’re “feeling frisky.” However only females will squat when they want to be mounted. Usually only sick or injured ganders will submit and be mounted but they won’t actively seek it out like the hens will. If a female doesn’t want to breed she’ll squirm away, ganders will tend to want to squabble over who mounts who leading to frustration, then a fight, though I’ve sometimes seen a hen turn around and fight a gander.
You might only see the squat from hens when breeding season has progressed more, ganders tend to start to behave hormonally and get territorial and more protective before the hens have any behavioral changes.

If you see any nesting activity, gathering materials, sitting down and scraping with their feet, even brooding white or egg like items, don’t pay much attention to that, ganders often do that as much as the females, hens are just more talented at nest building.

 

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

The best way to determine gender at this age is dna testing, they’re too big for a vent check to really be feasible at this point.

Another way is observing their behaviors. Ganders tend to be the ones to approach first and will stand between a person and the goose/geese under their protection, this gets tricky with multiple ganders because the more dominant personality will do this to the more submissive personality regardless of sex.

So another method is looking for female behaviors in particular, ganders and hens will sometimes mount each other or the same sex when they’re “feeling frisky.” However only females will squat when they want to be mounted. Usually only sick or injured ganders will submit and be mounted but they won’t actively seek it out like the hens will. If a female doesn’t want to breed she’ll squirm away, ganders will tend to want to squabble over who mounts who leading to frustration, then a fight, though I’ve sometimes seen a hen turn around and fight a gander.
You might only see the squat from hens when breeding season has progressed more, ganders tend to start to behave hormonally and get territorial and more protective before the hens have any behavioral changes.

If you see any nesting activity, gathering materials, sitting down and scraping with their feet, even brooding white or egg like items, don’t pay much attention to that, ganders often do that as much as the females, hens are just more talented at nest building.

Thank you for all that.

Well it does seem the M will come to me first, he’s actually more relaxed w me, it’s her who stands behind him & will bite. Which again encourages him. He is the one doing the “mating” but she doesn’t seem to want it much. She will fight back but we did see it happen just could be sure it was a success.

I also thought M were bigger than F, he has a thicker filled out neck, she has a slimmer neck. Does that matter? I’ll try to get better photos & see if that poof is there on the F.

 

[AGeese]

The males will stretch out their necks. They also have shrill calls where as the females cackle. Not sure how much luck you'll have with this pair, it would take both a confident posture and a lot of paitence. It may subside after breeding season, but they'll likely still pick on the other birds. If you have the space add more females otherwise if you feel like it's all too much it may be best to rehome.

 

[New duck mommy 2021]

If you do have 2 ganders the dominant one can mate the other
I find embden are like this during hormone season
My brother has tried them a few times
Another guy I watch on YT also same thing
Most geese start to pair up in December and mating can start around then or shortly after
I have 8 girls and 3 boys
Mating here has started and I have been getting eggs for 2 weeks now from 6 of my 8 girls
My ganders do not go after me or anyone even in high mate season
I run Pomeranian saddleback
As well as I have 4 mixed females this year ( toulouse / embden cross )
My grandkids have run into the corals and barn unattended
I also had a stranger to my geese pick up a gander ( brother to my young mixed girls ) a few weeks ago and not one of my geese was upset with us being in there

 

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

Thanks for all the replies. Was able to get some more photos of them, if they might help that way. One is def bigger than the other; whether that’s just bigger gander than other or not, I guess time will tell. But after reading some online info too, I do think we have M/F. She def stays behind him, he def does the protector role. But I get that could be Alpha beta too.

 

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

 

[JRies]

They look like a pair to me but not saying much. Also there young down color looks M/F You will know for sure in the next few months when the egg shows up. 1 egg every 2 days means M/F. Young geese are always questionable when they start laying. But haven't seen a healthy girl not lay the first season.