Ethics in Showing

[saladin]

(I'm not talking about Faking which is well defined in the Standard).

Obviously things have changed alot since I was a kid in 4-H!

I was taught that you NEVER show a bird you didn't hatch and raise yourself! Now, I exhibit/attend shows where folks buy 'ready to show' birds. Amazing. Even the 4-Hers purchase and show birds they did not raise themselves. Amazing.

Whatever happen to basic ethics in showing poultry?

What's even more amazing to me is that when I've talked with new-comers about these basic ethics (4-H leaders and the like) they look at me like I'm just some dinosaur. Maybe I am, but I still have standards I live by.

 

[4hchickmama]

Showing animals you did not breed yourself is like buying paint, brushes, and a canvas, hiring an artist to paint a picture, and then you enter the finished work in an art show as your own. After all, you bought the supplies, hired the artist, and directed him, so the work is yours right? ;P The trainer doesn't win the gold medal in the Olympics do they? The athlete does!! Of course a patron of the arts or an athletic trainer deserves credit for a job well done, but that's as far as it should, and does, go. Yes, you deserve credit for good husbandry, but showing poultry implies you are the breeder. It is not necessarily like dogs and horses.
We all have limitations. If you live in a place where you can't keep cocks,then don't show purebred birds.

And as I said before, if this was actually the rule and not just one mans opinion, then programs like 4H and FFA would die out as the areas where one can own land without ordinances grows thin. Having said that, I get the point with adult shows. When you are talking about exhibiting a bird in a cage, you ar saying "Look at what I did". In youth and junior 4H shows, we are talking about the very basics and beginning steps of learning poultry exhibition, showmanship, and handling. Not to mention, there is a whole lot more to poultry showmanship than putting a bird in a cage and getting a ribbon. If you personally have not worked with your bird, then you will not do well. As for the 5 year old with the parent prepping the bird in the corner...they are 5. They can't possibly do all the prep work themselves. You are supposed to show them, and they learn. Primary and cloverbud members are not judged with the Youth, Junior, and Senior exhibitors. So it isn't like the bird getting help from mom and not the 5 year old is going to be at a better advantage than a bird actually cared for 100% by another member. I would say 90% of the birds entered at any 4H/FFA youth show were bought from breeders and not home bred. Why? For the reasons I listed above. Some people simply cannot breed birds themselves...you should probably be glad that they can still enter, otherwise there would be very few entries in shows, and they would die out. Right now, as it stands, The OPs opinion is NOT the rule, nor is it implied as the ethical thing to do. What my kids have learned a great deal from 4H in many different areas...to take that away from them simply because they cannot have a rooster and breed their own birds is ludicrous. If we ever move to where we can have more birds, or a rooster, I'd love for them to have that experience, but to cut them out completely just because they can't have a rooster now, or call them unethical for the hundreds of hours or love, care, and training they have put into their birds simply because they didn't have land for a breeding program is just...silly.

 

[Heidi Thatcher]

It would also depend on your chapter and location too. Some FFA and 4H only require the bird be owned for 1 month, not four. Some shows or fairs will have different rules for non 4h/ffa exhibitors as well. When I first started in 4H I was not able to hatch my own birds so I would buy young birds or ready to show birds from others and would work on their cage or table manners. The birds would either be sold after the show or returned to the person I got them from depending on arrangements made when I got the birds.

I dont see this as unethical at all. Times change. If every 4H or FFA, or even independant exhibitor, had to hatch, raise, select, train/tame, and show their own birds those youth programs would die out. Some cities are still hard pressed to allow poultry as it is, and most that do allow poultry forbid roosters or overly chatty hens. Land prices are going up. People simply can't just up and move to a farm to raise birds for their kids to show.

Just my two cents.

 

[4hchickmama]

I frankly don't care who he is. Certainly he is entitled to his opinion, but to call others "unethical" because they don't agree with it is rude and YES offensive. Thankfully, his opinion isn't aligned with the rules for showing poultry, or any other kind of animal in shows. There are other ways you can state your opinion without calling others unethical.

 

[WarrenHound]

wow *whistle* SOME people do not have the blessing of living in an area where they can breed and raise their own birds to show because they may not be able to own roosters or have a limit to how many they can own where they live. i certainly do not consider it "unethical" to buy good stock to show from a breeder or whatnot rather than producing your own when it may not be possible.

some people can not afford or even work an incubator i have people out here that have volunteered to pay me 50.00 to hatch 5 eggs that they are going to have to mail in to be hatched....does that make them unethical?? no it means they dont have the means to hatch them i helped them find a closer local breeder and they are showing in 4H now with the birds they bought.

frankly boys and girls you cant make birds from nothing so they had to come from somewhere are they suppose to hatch those eggs or raise those chicks then breed and find some way to hatch them or hope the hen goes broody? it all starts from somewhere

and frankly isnt it better if they get them from someone that knows their birds? alot of ppl are just starting out adults and kids i dont want to see the chicken people harshing on the newbies like the dog show ppl do.


when i decided i wanted a show dog i HAD to go to a breeder that isnt my own line and i cant breed him unless he is a CH as per his contract so am i "unethical" because i havent bred him and shown his offspring?? certainly not i AM ethical for adhering to my contract.

my success in the ring is my own, my dog came to me at 12 weeks old past that the success or failure of my animal is my own doing if the conformation is correct. my breeder can be proud of what she produced but it is ME in the ring and working with him just like it is the kid or adult that raises the chick or young bird's success at a show with their birds.

i doubt most kids or many adults could do what you suggest! i looked into moving to oregon recently i was stunned by how many places that have a limit of 4 birds and no roosters...so how would i even manage what you suggest? in fact most areas i had to APPLY for a permit @.@

 

[cubakid]

I was raised not to attack people and if you feel that way I'm sorry. I'm not exerting myself or my future onto anyone. You still don't understand that this thread is not aimed entirely at 4h kids that can't raise cocks on their premises, as like you said 90% or more live in town or in city limits. I agree that no one would spent thousands of dollars on a single bird, that was not my point. My point being that my parents would not have spent the thousands they do, if it was a hobby or if I was not going to do nothing. I do almost everything. My parents help as well as other youth and I give back. But this is not the future of poultry, showing till you grow out of it, and buying birds until then... Who will be there to sell those birds when those breeders are gone, and who was there to sell those birds to the breeder your birds came from, and so forth. It has to cycle, otherwise the fancy will be gone.

edited by staff

 

[gjensen]

Wow. I never saw this being such an emotionally charged topic. I am amazed that chickens can be such a devisive subject. I do not think the OP meant to beat up on the poor little kids. I think he intended to discuss the ethics around showing birds. I think the topic got ahead of itself.

I do not get showing another's birds. I just don't get wanting to. If the 4H judging was for conditioning and showmanship instead about the birds themselves, then I would understand. As long as the birds themselves are being judged, it wouldn't make sense to me. Then it would boil down to which parent bought the best birds

I do not know the rules or ethics, so I probably shouldn't comment. We just went through this thought process a couple years ago ourselves.

 

[4hchickmama]

I think the 4H rules state you have to have owned the bird for 4 months minimum prior to showing it. I've never heard about having to hatch it yourself. My girls have only hatched a few of our birds, all the others we bought as 6-8 week olds. I don't understand why that isn't ethical?

Even with market animals, I've never heard of any requirement of hatching it yourself. Most kids get their market birds at a few days old from a hatchery, breeder, or feed store.

Now I agree, a 4H bird should be a project that the child is actually working on for a minimum amount of time, but I don't think they need to hatch the birds themselves to be considered ethical. Not all 4Hers have the ability to do that. For instance, we are allowed chickens, but have a no rooster ordinance. So my options would be to only buy purchased eggs and buy an incubator? Why? When I can purchase young birds and still have my kids have the experience of raising them up. Now, I will also say, there is a separate category you can enter into, with extra prizes, for "bred and owned" or something along those lines, for birds who were bred and raised by the child.

 

[snowbird]

I have always said I would only show a bird that I raised myself, I do believe that in 4-H and FFA thought that one month is fine. I give these kids fowl one year but will not replace them afterward in next years of showing.

 

[1muttsfan]

I have provided young birds for 4-H kids who otherwise would not be able to raise quality chickens at all due to financial constraints,or with parents unwilling to buy eggs, chicks or to have more than a few birds at the house. I do think that it is WRONG for kids to show birds they bought practically finished before the show date, and which they did not care for at all.