Quote:
a quickie question ( NOT putting your eating habits down
) ,, doesnt selling the eggs ( or giving away) go against veganism?
a quickie question ( NOT putting your eating habits down
Everyone tries to press that chickens are pets, but
- Thread starter ncCHICKS
- Start date
My chickens are pets. They all have names, and do get vet care if they are sick. That's my choice. There are people in this world that eat horses and dogs, and some people will not take a horse or dog to the vet. That doesn't mean that my horses and my dog aren't pets.
i took cuddles to the vet. this past summer the vet. said that she need to be put down she was going 17 teen this fall the vet. gave me a shot for her at home it was very hard to do it but i did i have birds that are 4-5 yrs old and some time they need put down but it needs to be done for the animal the good came out of this is my vet. called about 4weeks later and he had a 8weeks blue heller for i have a very good vet.
People do a lot of culling when they hatch their own eggs and get chicks with deformities, etc., that would take away from the bird's quality of life.
When you buy a kitten or a puppy for your family's pet, the breeder has already done the "sorting" for you; you don't have to deal with the blind or deformed puppies or kittens. In fact, you usually never see them.
It's just common sense that raising a flock of chickens and breeding them is like raising other pets, but also has some greater responsibilities and things to take care of that the average dog or cat owner doesn't have to deal with.
When you buy a kitten or a puppy for your family's pet, the breeder has already done the "sorting" for you; you don't have to deal with the blind or deformed puppies or kittens. In fact, you usually never see them.
It's just common sense that raising a flock of chickens and breeding them is like raising other pets, but also has some greater responsibilities and things to take care of that the average dog or cat owner doesn't have to deal with.
Quote:
Says whom? If it is alive and breathes, can get sick, can die...what makes you think it cannot feel? Science has shown that they do just as it has shown they do not.
Quote:
Becoming a vegan does not stop the cruelty nor does it solve the personal dilemma an individual suffers as a result of eating meat and knowing of such cruelty.
Do not confuse commercial meat production with small backyard farms...there is an extreme difference. I have had steers that I raised, cared for, fed, groomed and walked....that ended up in my freezer. I had a 500 lb duroc boar that threw himself down and rolled onto his back for belly rubs as soon as he saw me walking his way...he went into my freezer.
Just because an animal is beign raised for food does not mean we must detach ourselves to the point of having no feelings...we leave that to the commercial farms. I feel no sadness at doing what I am supposed to do in caring for an animal and providing for it when it, in turn, provides for me.
Become a vegan because you think it is healthier for you and your personal needs but not because you disagree with how food is raised. That would be like me never owning a horse because irresponsible breeders and owners sent them to slaughter every day because they are no longer useful or were born the wrong color.
Just my opinion. *shrugs*
Says whom? If it is alive and breathes, can get sick, can die...what makes you think it cannot feel? Science has shown that they do just as it has shown they do not.
Quote:
Becoming a vegan does not stop the cruelty nor does it solve the personal dilemma an individual suffers as a result of eating meat and knowing of such cruelty.
Do not confuse commercial meat production with small backyard farms...there is an extreme difference. I have had steers that I raised, cared for, fed, groomed and walked....that ended up in my freezer. I had a 500 lb duroc boar that threw himself down and rolled onto his back for belly rubs as soon as he saw me walking his way...he went into my freezer.
Just because an animal is beign raised for food does not mean we must detach ourselves to the point of having no feelings...we leave that to the commercial farms. I feel no sadness at doing what I am supposed to do in caring for an animal and providing for it when it, in turn, provides for me.
Become a vegan because you think it is healthier for you and your personal needs but not because you disagree with how food is raised. That would be like me never owning a horse because irresponsible breeders and owners sent them to slaughter every day because they are no longer useful or were born the wrong color.
Just my opinion. *shrugs*
Quote:
Says whom? If it is alive and breathes, can get sick, can die...what makes you think it cannot feel? Science has shown that they do just as it has shown they do not.
Quote:
Becoming a vegan does not stop the cruelty nor does it solve the personal dilemma an individual suffers as a result of eating meat and knowing of such cruelty.
Do not confuse commercial meat production with small backyard farms...there is an extreme difference. I have had steers that I raised, cared for, fed, groomed and walked....that ended up in my freezer. I had a 500 lb duroc boar that threw himself down and rolled onto his back for belly rubs as soon as he saw me walking his way...he went into my freezer.
Just because an animal is beign raised for food does not mean we must detach ourselves to the point of having no feelings...we leave that to the commercial farms. I feel no sadness at doing what I am supposed to do in caring for an animal and providing for it when it, in turn, provides for me.
Become a vegan because you think it is healthier for you and your personal needs but not because you disagree with how food is raised. That would be like me never owning a horse because irresponsible breeders and owners sent them to slaughter every day because they are no longer useful or were born the wrong color.
Just my opinion. *shrugs*
I think killing for food is cruel too. It doesn't matter how or why it was done, killing is killing no matter how many different ways you look at it. I would never kill an animal in my life (unless one of my pets was suffering and needed to be put to sleep. which i would then bring them to the vet because lethal injection is probably the most painless way to kill them). I don't understand why meat eaters tell me I don't need to be a vegetarian or a vegan. People have said I could eat kosher chickens and that there's no cruelty there so I don't need to be a vege... yeah? I was under the impression that those chickens still died, even if it was painless.
Besides, I don't even like meat enough to cause animals to get killed so I can eat it (esp hate cow meat, it tastes digusting) and back when I did eat meat I couldn't help but feel sick and lose my appetite thinking about what I was eating. Fake meat (plus vegan produts) are 100x better, IMHO.
I'm a vegetarian for the animals, not for myself. I hope I am healthier as one though, I certainly feel healthier, but that would just be an added bonus to the reason I became a vegetarian.
Humans couldn't survive on a diet of just meat, so I suppose the plants will have to suffer. And plants certainly feel alot less than animals do (and they can't think and feel fear like animals).
Says whom? If it is alive and breathes, can get sick, can die...what makes you think it cannot feel? Science has shown that they do just as it has shown they do not.
Quote:
Becoming a vegan does not stop the cruelty nor does it solve the personal dilemma an individual suffers as a result of eating meat and knowing of such cruelty.
Do not confuse commercial meat production with small backyard farms...there is an extreme difference. I have had steers that I raised, cared for, fed, groomed and walked....that ended up in my freezer. I had a 500 lb duroc boar that threw himself down and rolled onto his back for belly rubs as soon as he saw me walking his way...he went into my freezer.
Just because an animal is beign raised for food does not mean we must detach ourselves to the point of having no feelings...we leave that to the commercial farms. I feel no sadness at doing what I am supposed to do in caring for an animal and providing for it when it, in turn, provides for me.
Become a vegan because you think it is healthier for you and your personal needs but not because you disagree with how food is raised. That would be like me never owning a horse because irresponsible breeders and owners sent them to slaughter every day because they are no longer useful or were born the wrong color.
Just my opinion. *shrugs*
I think killing for food is cruel too. It doesn't matter how or why it was done, killing is killing no matter how many different ways you look at it. I would never kill an animal in my life (unless one of my pets was suffering and needed to be put to sleep. which i would then bring them to the vet because lethal injection is probably the most painless way to kill them). I don't understand why meat eaters tell me I don't need to be a vegetarian or a vegan. People have said I could eat kosher chickens and that there's no cruelty there so I don't need to be a vege... yeah? I was under the impression that those chickens still died, even if it was painless.
Besides, I don't even like meat enough to cause animals to get killed so I can eat it (esp hate cow meat, it tastes digusting) and back when I did eat meat I couldn't help but feel sick and lose my appetite thinking about what I was eating. Fake meat (plus vegan produts) are 100x better, IMHO.
I'm a vegetarian for the animals, not for myself. I hope I am healthier as one though, I certainly feel healthier, but that would just be an added bonus to the reason I became a vegetarian.
Humans couldn't survive on a diet of just meat, so I suppose the plants will have to suffer. And plants certainly feel alot less than animals do (and they can't think and feel fear like animals).
Last edited:
You need to study nutrition.
The 'humans don't need to eat meat' arguement doesn't cut it.
The only way the human body can get a complete long chain fatty acid is by eating meat. No vegetable matter will complete that protein need.
Many vegetarians and Vegans use the disclaimer humans don't need meat. O'kay prove it without your health suffering.
Personally, I know too many 'vegans' and too many 'vegetarians' that think they are healthy and are doing the right thing about not eating meat yet over time they have developed weird skin rashes, have illnesses that won't go away, suffer strange allergies - all related to not eating meat according to seveeal doctors my friend visited.
The 'humans don't need to eat meat' arguement doesn't cut it.
The only way the human body can get a complete long chain fatty acid is by eating meat. No vegetable matter will complete that protein need.
Many vegetarians and Vegans use the disclaimer humans don't need meat. O'kay prove it without your health suffering.
Personally, I know too many 'vegans' and too many 'vegetarians' that think they are healthy and are doing the right thing about not eating meat yet over time they have developed weird skin rashes, have illnesses that won't go away, suffer strange allergies - all related to not eating meat according to seveeal doctors my friend visited.
Finally, you need to look at nutritional requirements. There are some
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
This quote comes from this paper -
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
This quote comes from this paper -
Are humans vegetarians or omnivores?
Date: Tue May 23 14:18:31 2000
Posted By: Thomas M. Greiner, Assistant Professor of Anatomy / Physical Anthropology
Area of science: Other
ID: 957941229.Ot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
Are humans vegetarians or omnivores?
Those terms are not strict biological designations, and so the question
needs to be rephrased a bit before it can be answered. The confusion stems
from the use of the word "carnivore" to mean "meat eater" - instead the
word carnivorous should be used. To be biologically strict here, a
carnivore is an order of mammal (recognized by the presence of the
carnassial tooth, among other things) that includes cats (felids), dogs
(canids), bears (ursids), and a number of other mammalian families.
Carnivores are not strictly meat eaters - most will eat some type of plants
as a part (sometimes even the main part) of their diet.
The term "vegetarian" is strictly a human construct. Vegetarians shun
animal products for food, usually for religious or ethical reasons. Even
still, there are degrees of vegetarian. Some vegetarians will never
consciously eat any food that comes from an animal. Other will consume
dairy products (an animal food even though it isn't meat). Others will
allow themselves to eat eggs (the pre-chicken, so to speak), or fish.
Vegetarianism is more of a dietary philosophy then an ecological food
preference, so it's hard to speak of it in biological terms.
Biologists rarely (never in my experience) categorize non-carnivorous
animals into one "plant eating" group. That is because different dietary
specializations are required to eat different types of plants. Thus, you
will hear of herbivores (specialized to eat shoots and growing tips),
folivores (specialized to eat leaves) and frugivores (specialized to eat
fruit) among other adaptations. Even within these broad groupings there are
further specializations, such as grazers that eat grass and browsers that
eat shrubs (both are types of herbivore). And even among the "plant eating"
animals there is no animal that I am aware of that will not consume some
type of animal protein when given the opportunity.
An omnivore is an animal that will draw its food from all aspects of the
ecosystem (plants, animals - whatever). As I've already pointed out, you
could claim that nearly every animal is omnivorous since a purely meat
eater or purely plant eater is very rare. Nonetheless, you can look at the
animal's anatomy to look at how they are adapted to process food.
First you can look at the teeth.
Molars are broad flat teeth that are useful in grinding up tough fibrous
material - such as plants. Animals that are primarily plant eaters have
very large molars with six pairs (three uppers and three lowers) on each
side. Animals that do not specialize in eating plants tend to have a
reduced number of molars. Humans are equipped with six pairs of molars.
Although they are not very large, this would suggest that humans have the
ability to process fibrous plant food.
Premolars (bicuspids) are the slicing teeth. Mammals originally had eight
pairs of premolars, although most mammals alive today have fewer. Premolars
are the primary teeth used by meat eating specialists, and are frequently
missing in animals that specialize in plant foods. Humans have four pairs
of premolars, which suggests that humans have the ability to process animal
food.
Incisors are grasping teeth, that change shape depending upon how they are
used. The broad flat surfaces of human incisors is most associated with
animals that specialize in eating fruit.
So, if we just look at our teeth - humans are clearly built to be
omnivorous. But, of course there is more data. We can look at how nutrients
are processes and absorbed in the body.
Meat and fruit are high quality foods that are not difficult to assimilate.
Animals that specialize in these types of food tend to have a short
digestive tract, with a very short large intestine. Plant foods can be
nutritious, but take longer to absorb. Therefore, animals that specialize
in plant eating tend to have long and elaborate digestive tracts. Humans
are clearly intermediate here. We have a long large intestine (more common
in plant eaters), but we lack the elaborations that would allow us to
digest and assimilate nutrients from high fiber plant foods (such as
grass or leaves). So, again, the human digestive tract can be used to argue
that we are omnivorous.
Finally, you need to look at nutritional requirements. There are some
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
Humans are omnivores. The order of mammals that includes humans (the
primates) are all omnivores. To be sure, the modern American diet includes
a lot more meat than is healthy. And the human animal can be very healthy
by being a lot more vegetarian. But to never eat meat is both unnatural and
unhealthy.
Finally, you ask about my credentials to answer this question. Well, I am
employed as an anatomy professor (and am therefore a specialist in human
anatomy). I teach at a college that specializes in training health care
workers (so I am familiar with issues of human health an nutrition).
Finally, I earned by Ph.D. in Physical Anthropology (which sort of makes me
an expert in how humans adapt both biologically and culturally to the
environment).
Some References relevant to this questions:
Harding, RSO & Teleki, G (1981) Omnivorous Primates. Columbia University
Press: New York.
Romer, AS & Parsons, TS (1986) The Vertebrate Body. Saunders College
Publishing: New York
Oxnard, C. (1987) Fossils, Teeth and Sex. University of Washington Press:
Seattle
Date: Tue May 23 14:18:31 2000
Posted By: Thomas M. Greiner, Assistant Professor of Anatomy / Physical Anthropology
Area of science: Other
ID: 957941229.Ot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
Are humans vegetarians or omnivores?
Those terms are not strict biological designations, and so the question
needs to be rephrased a bit before it can be answered. The confusion stems
from the use of the word "carnivore" to mean "meat eater" - instead the
word carnivorous should be used. To be biologically strict here, a
carnivore is an order of mammal (recognized by the presence of the
carnassial tooth, among other things) that includes cats (felids), dogs
(canids), bears (ursids), and a number of other mammalian families.
Carnivores are not strictly meat eaters - most will eat some type of plants
as a part (sometimes even the main part) of their diet.
The term "vegetarian" is strictly a human construct. Vegetarians shun
animal products for food, usually for religious or ethical reasons. Even
still, there are degrees of vegetarian. Some vegetarians will never
consciously eat any food that comes from an animal. Other will consume
dairy products (an animal food even though it isn't meat). Others will
allow themselves to eat eggs (the pre-chicken, so to speak), or fish.
Vegetarianism is more of a dietary philosophy then an ecological food
preference, so it's hard to speak of it in biological terms.
Biologists rarely (never in my experience) categorize non-carnivorous
animals into one "plant eating" group. That is because different dietary
specializations are required to eat different types of plants. Thus, you
will hear of herbivores (specialized to eat shoots and growing tips),
folivores (specialized to eat leaves) and frugivores (specialized to eat
fruit) among other adaptations. Even within these broad groupings there are
further specializations, such as grazers that eat grass and browsers that
eat shrubs (both are types of herbivore). And even among the "plant eating"
animals there is no animal that I am aware of that will not consume some
type of animal protein when given the opportunity.
An omnivore is an animal that will draw its food from all aspects of the
ecosystem (plants, animals - whatever). As I've already pointed out, you
could claim that nearly every animal is omnivorous since a purely meat
eater or purely plant eater is very rare. Nonetheless, you can look at the
animal's anatomy to look at how they are adapted to process food.
First you can look at the teeth.
Molars are broad flat teeth that are useful in grinding up tough fibrous
material - such as plants. Animals that are primarily plant eaters have
very large molars with six pairs (three uppers and three lowers) on each
side. Animals that do not specialize in eating plants tend to have a
reduced number of molars. Humans are equipped with six pairs of molars.
Although they are not very large, this would suggest that humans have the
ability to process fibrous plant food.
Premolars (bicuspids) are the slicing teeth. Mammals originally had eight
pairs of premolars, although most mammals alive today have fewer. Premolars
are the primary teeth used by meat eating specialists, and are frequently
missing in animals that specialize in plant foods. Humans have four pairs
of premolars, which suggests that humans have the ability to process animal
food.
Incisors are grasping teeth, that change shape depending upon how they are
used. The broad flat surfaces of human incisors is most associated with
animals that specialize in eating fruit.
So, if we just look at our teeth - humans are clearly built to be
omnivorous. But, of course there is more data. We can look at how nutrients
are processes and absorbed in the body.
Meat and fruit are high quality foods that are not difficult to assimilate.
Animals that specialize in these types of food tend to have a short
digestive tract, with a very short large intestine. Plant foods can be
nutritious, but take longer to absorb. Therefore, animals that specialize
in plant eating tend to have long and elaborate digestive tracts. Humans
are clearly intermediate here. We have a long large intestine (more common
in plant eaters), but we lack the elaborations that would allow us to
digest and assimilate nutrients from high fiber plant foods (such as
grass or leaves). So, again, the human digestive tract can be used to argue
that we are omnivorous.
Finally, you need to look at nutritional requirements. There are some
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
Humans are omnivores. The order of mammals that includes humans (the
primates) are all omnivores. To be sure, the modern American diet includes
a lot more meat than is healthy. And the human animal can be very healthy
by being a lot more vegetarian. But to never eat meat is both unnatural and
unhealthy.
Finally, you ask about my credentials to answer this question. Well, I am
employed as an anatomy professor (and am therefore a specialist in human
anatomy). I teach at a college that specializes in training health care
workers (so I am familiar with issues of human health an nutrition).
Finally, I earned by Ph.D. in Physical Anthropology (which sort of makes me
an expert in how humans adapt both biologically and culturally to the
environment).
Some References relevant to this questions:
Harding, RSO & Teleki, G (1981) Omnivorous Primates. Columbia University
Press: New York.
Romer, AS & Parsons, TS (1986) The Vertebrate Body. Saunders College
Publishing: New York
Oxnard, C. (1987) Fossils, Teeth and Sex. University of Washington Press:
Seattle
Yeah, I do need to study nutrition. I didn't really research before or after becoming a vege so I dont know what things i need to be healthy.
Personally, I know too many 'vegans' and too many 'vegetarians' that think they are healthy and are doing the right thing about not eating meat yet over time they have developed weird skin rashes, have illnesses that won't go away, suffer strange allergies - all related to not eating meat according to seveeal doctors my friend visited.
Maybe they're allergic to some type of food? I'm allergic to nearly every fruit, vegetable, and a couple of different kinds of nuts. (have been my whole life, only became a vegetarian about 10 months ago) Only fresh vegetables and fruits give me allergic reactions tho (and before you say 'then how are you a vegetarian'.. they aren't severe allergies. depending on what fruit/veggie/nut I eat, i get rashes/blisters, itchy throat/tongue/lips, swollen lips, etc). And since June on and off I've been having these wierd blisters on my fingers that I've never gotten before. They're filled with clear liquid, itch an d cause my knuckles to swell. I thought it might have to do with stress but I'm starting to think that maybe I'm allergic to soy as well.
Maybe they're allergic to some type of food? I'm allergic to nearly every fruit, vegetable, and a couple of different kinds of nuts. (have been my whole life, only became a vegetarian about 10 months ago) Only fresh vegetables and fruits give me allergic reactions tho (and before you say 'then how are you a vegetarian'.. they aren't severe allergies. depending on what fruit/veggie/nut I eat, i get rashes/blisters, itchy throat/tongue/lips, swollen lips, etc). And since June on and off I've been having these wierd blisters on my fingers that I've never gotten before. They're filled with clear liquid, itch an d cause my knuckles to swell. I thought it might have to do with stress but I'm starting to think that maybe I'm allergic to soy as well.
Finally, you need to look at nutritional requirements. There are some
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
Key word there is "and had no artificial vitamin supplements"
B-complex vitamins that are available only by eating other animals. The
human body requires this nutrient, but does not synthesize it the way some
other animals do. Therefore, if humans truly ate no animal foods, and had
no artificial vitamin supplements, they would sicken and die. In nature,
there are no true "human vegetarians."
Key word there is "and had no artificial vitamin supplements"
Last edited:
Exactly. The nutriton is coming from a pill. A vitamin is not the same as eating a complete diet with a very wide ranging mix of foods.
- Dec 11, 2007
- 107
- 0
- 129
I think killing for food is cruel too. It doesn't matter how or why it was done, killing is killing no matter how many different ways you look at it.
There's something I was thinking about the other day. Yes, killing an animal for food ends its life...but if everyone was vegan, there would be a whole lot fewer animals that ever got a chance TO live. I know my chickens are happy, healthy, and have a good life. If I lived in a place with more room, I would go ahead and get chickens and other animals to raise for meat. I'd give them a good life, thank them, and then let them go on as peacefully as possible.
See, death is really not that bad. It's something we ALL will have to go through...whether plant or animal or human (yes, we're animals too).
There's something I was thinking about the other day. Yes, killing an animal for food ends its life...but if everyone was vegan, there would be a whole lot fewer animals that ever got a chance TO live. I know my chickens are happy, healthy, and have a good life. If I lived in a place with more room, I would go ahead and get chickens and other animals to raise for meat. I'd give them a good life, thank them, and then let them go on as peacefully as possible.
See, death is really not that bad. It's something we ALL will have to go through...whether plant or animal or human (yes, we're animals too).
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