Experimenting w/Bullies

[Sydney65]

So we know if we have A bully, we're to remove him/her for a days to rebalance hierarchy of flock. But when you have gangs and sub-gangs, that won't work. I know, bigger flock, less struggles. But that's not happening at this moment, so I have to sort out the 10 that I have.
So last night, I left the 3 hens that get picked on in the coop w/the 2 jumbos, a male and a female in the "sunroom", 2 males and a female in the run (we're insanely back up to decent temps, so they're fine).
But wait, I noticed a jumbo was picking on one of my hens (Numi and Brodie no longer hang out, btw).
So I thought it over today while sitting out with them. I have a gang of five. But my sub- groups are by color, so the 2 male slates stay together, the 2 female violets stick together, the 2 jumbo males stick together- the subgroups.
The gang is the slates,the violets, and Zuri, the unknown guinea.
So I watched them today and realized that although in "the gang", Echo (V hen) isn't a bully or pecker. She just sticks close to the other V.
So tonight, 4 hens are in the coop,Echo and the other 3.
The other V hen is in the "sunroom" w/ one slate and one jumbo, and one jumbo,one slate,and Zuri are in the run (yep, 2nd nite for Zuri-and he hates it -I can hear him from here!)
If the point is to break hierarchy by removing the bully, then my rational is to split up the gang by splitting up the subgroups.
Wish me luck.

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

So we know if we have A bully, we're to remove him/her for a days to rebalance hierarchy of flock. But when you have gangs and sub-gangs, that won't work. I know, bigger flock, less struggles. But that's not happening at this moment, so I have to sort out the 10 that I have.
So last night, I left the 3 hens that get picked on in the coop w/the 2 jumbos, a male and a female in the "sunroom", 2 males and a female in the run (we're insanely back up to decent temps, so they're fine).
But wait, I noticed a jumbo was picking on one of my hens (Numi and Brodie no longer hang out, btw).
So I thought it over today while sitting out with them. I have a gang of five. But my sub- groups are by color, so the 2 male slates stay together, the 2 female violets stick together, the 2 jumbo males stick together- the subgroups.
The gang is the slates,the violets, and Zuri, the unknown guinea.
So I watched them today and realized that although in "the gang", Echo (V hen) isn't a bully or pecker. She just sticks close to the other V.
So tonight, 4 hens are in the coop,Echo and the other 3.
The other V hen is in the "sunroom" w/ one slate and one jumbo, and one jumbo,one slate,and Zuri are in the run (yep, 2nd nite for Zuri-and he hates it -I can hear him from here!)
If the point is to break hierarchy by removing the bully, then my rational is to split up the gang by splitting up the subgroups.
Wish me luck.

I think I need a diagram to figure this all out! How bad is the bullying? Just a little chasing or does it escalate to feather pulling, blood, etc? Even now, when I feel like my flock dynamics are pretty good, there is a sizeable number of guineas that can’t do basic things like eat next to the dominant birds. So the subordinate birds will spend a lot of time on roosts or separated from the dominant birds. I have a fair amount of visual breaks and separation of areas with separate feeders and waterers, so the subordinate birds can still eat and drink away from the dominant birds.

 

[Sydney65]

I think I need a diagram to figure this all out! How bad is the bullying? Just a little chasing or does it escalate to feather pulling, blood, etc? Even now, when I feel like my flock dynamics are pretty good, there is a sizeable number of guineas that can’t do basic things like eat next to the dominant birds. So the subordinate birds will spend a lot of time on roosts or separated from the dominant birds. I have a fair amount of visual breaks and separation of areas with separate feeders and waterers, so the subordinate birds can still eat and drink away from the dominant birds.

Lol- I wondered abt that. Remember, the original coop is a tractor, w/coop in back and the run enclosed w/polycarbonate panels in the winter. Doing the math, it is plenty of sq feet for them.
How bad is the bullying- 2 ganged up on Mockie yesterday, cornering and pecking her while she cowered. There's been no major physical injury, I see small peck scabs on their heads, I clean out a ton of feathers, but I've assumed mainly from 10 birds molting,as there's a bit of everyone's in the mix and no one has bald spots. I've not seen blood recently-Zuri took a wallop when younger. When Numi got sick, she had a small bruise to side of head.
It's mostly the mental affect-cowering, running or creeping to move abt, being blocked access to coop,food, etc. Mockie and Willow stay close to me most of the time, Numi will go off by herself, which isn't that unusual, given she grew up being on her own for outdoor time that way before moving to coop. I'm surprised- she took on the 3 jumbos single handedly and would spin them around by their tails, but I think they're more docile in nature than the keenagers.
But I tend to attribute the bullying to being the reason she suddenly came down with coccidiosis. The stress+ weather changes. I don't know how long it takes a guinea to recoup from brooding, but it doesn't help when you're being harassed and blocked from food. She's been getting up early so she can eat,drink and dustbath before the others come out. The others creep out when they can.
This is an older pic, I've moved the hanging feeders up near the ceiling so they can eat from perches, have extra bowls of water scattered in run. I had the bucket feeders out in run over the summer, but ended up w/one collecting moisture that way. Maybe once I enclose run with tarps I can try that again.
I don't have food/water in coop. There are various perches out in run. I took out the pallet I had as a porch bc it took up space, and it only seemed to be something they could injure themselves or poop on (these keenagers are a lot flightier(insert nutsy) than I'm used to. Lol
Your description of subordinate birds fits, and it's those 3 hens. As I said, Echo hangs w/the gang, but when I pulled her out, I found she's much calmer than I anticipated. Ex- the rest of the gang go when handled.and don't really settle. But Echo did and sat in my lap for awhile, let me remove her leg band,went to Numi on roost and gave submissive gestures to her, so I expect the 4 of them did well last night.
I have pallets I could create walls, visual breaks with; if no one cracks their head flying into them... I felt bad when Numi wandered into the new shed looking around as if she was thinking of moving back in,and I've turned it into a garden shed.

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

Lol- I wondered abt that. Remember, the original coop is a tractor, w/coop in back and the run enclosed w/polycarbonate panels in the winter. Doing the math, it is plenty of sq feet for them.View attachment 3300083
How bad is the bullying- 2 ganged up on Mockie yesterday, cornering and pecking her while she cowered. There's been no major physical injury, I see small peck scabs on their heads, I clean out a ton of feathers, but I've assumed mainly from 10 birds molting,as there's a bit of everyone's in the mix and no one has bald spots. I've not seen blood recently-Zuri took a wallop when younger. When Numi got sick, she had a small bruise to side of head.
It's mostly the mental affect-cowering, running or creeping to move abt, being blocked access to coop,food, etc. Mockie and Willow stay close to me most of the time, Numi will go off by herself, which isn't that unusual, given she grew up being on her own for outdoor time that way before moving to coop. I'm surprised- she took on the 3 jumbos single handedly and would spin them around by their tails, but I think they're more docile in nature than the keenagers.
But I tend to attribute the bullying to being the reason she suddenly came down with coccidiosis. The stress+ weather changes. I don't know how long it takes a guinea to recoup from brooding, but it doesn't help when you're being harassed and blocked from food. She's been getting up early so she can eat,drink and dustbath before the others come out. The others creep out when they can.
This is an older pic, I've moved the hanging feeders up near the ceiling so they can eat from perches, have extra bowls of water scattered in run. I had the bucket feeders out in run over the summer, but ended up w/one collecting moisture that way. Maybe once I enclose run with tarps I can try that again.
I don't have food/water in coop. There are various perches out in run. I took out the pallet I had as a porch bc it took up space, and it only seemed to be something they could injure themselves or poop on (these keenagers are a lot flightier(insert nutsy) than I'm used to. Lol
Your description of subordinate birds fits, and it's those 3 hens. As I said, Echo hangs w/the gang, but when I pulled her out, I found she's much calmer than I anticipated. Ex- the rest of the gang go when handled.and don't really settle. But Echo did and sat in my lap for awhile, let me remove her leg band,went to Numi on roost and gave submissive gestures to her, so I expect the 4 of them did well last night.
I have pallets I could create walls, visual breaks with; if no one cracks their head flying into them... I felt bad when Numi wandered into the new shed looking around as if she was thinking of moving back in,and I've turned it into a garden shed.

Well I think it’s a tough thing to maintain a confined Guinea flock. The square area per bird that my flock would need to really be happy when 100% confined is probably much larger than 10 square feet, maybe more like 100 square feet per bird. I think of my confusion of guienas (and my flock of chickens) of having a group personality that is apart from the personality of its individuals. Kind of like how my class of students has its own “class” personality, with individual students that may be very different one on one. With Guinea fowl, I think that their flock personality is so important to them (Numi might be different, due to her singleton history), and they will expect and assign different roles to each other. Your flock personality and roles are still forming as your flock members have split and reunited plus you’ve added new birds. The subordinates and dominants have their own role to play in keeping the flock safe and healthy, so even if space does not allow for it they will still try to fulfill those roles. I assume free ranging is not going to happen right now? I’m getting mine out for an hour or two a day despite the HPAI and my migrating hawks. This is when subordinate birds circle back to the coop and fill up on feed. One way I gauge how the subordinate birds are doing is to see if they stay out in the run well past dusk trying to scarf down feed. Right now none are doing that so I think they get their needs met. I think that it’s just a good mental decompression for the flock to get outside for a bit. Also, Guinea flocks are very concerned about danger. Having some external focus of danger unites them and helps them get along as a flock. Even if there’s not danger present, going outside for a bit gets them all focused on the possibility of danger and they stop focusing so much on whatever bird they want to chase. So that’s another mental break plus flock realignment of purpose.

It sounds like you are on the right track with your separation of feeding and water areas. I’d look carefully at lines of sight. I do put feed and water in my Guinea coop, though I don’t for the chicken coop. For my guineas, I just feel it’s more important to give them a lot of space between feeders. Also, all feeders have a broken line of sight from each other, see a bird feeding at Feeder A can’t see the bird eating at Feeder B. Ditto for the waterers. For the run, I designed it as a “circle”, which is split down the middle by long boards. Feeders are on opposite sides of the board. I also have roosts lining the run and subordinate birds spend a lot of time on those roosts. I tried to sketch this on an app but I think I’ll try some hand drawings and post them.

 

[Sydney65]

Well I think it’s a tough thing to maintain a confined Guinea flock. The square area per bird that my flock would need to really be happy when 100% confined is probably much larger than 10 square feet, maybe more like 100 square feet per bird. I think of my confusion of guienas (and my flock of chickens) of having a group personality that is apart from the personality of its individuals. Kind of like how my class of students has its own “class” personality, with individual students that may be very different one on one. With Guinea fowl, I think that their flock personality is so important to them (Numi might be different, due to her singleton history), and they will expect and assign different roles to each other. Your flock personality and roles are still forming as your flock members have split and reunited plus you’ve added new birds. The subordinates and dominants have their own role to play in keeping the flock safe and healthy, so even if space does not allow for it they will still try to fulfill those roles. I assume free ranging is not going to happen right now? I’m getting mine out for an hour or two a day despite the HPAI and my migrating hawks. This is when subordinate birds circle back to the coop and fill up on feed. One way I gauge how the subordinate birds are doing is to see if they stay out in the run well past dusk trying to scarf down feed. Right now none are doing that so I think they get their needs met. I think that it’s just a good mental decompression for the flock to get outside for a bit. Also, Guinea flocks are very concerned about danger. Having some external focus of danger unites them and helps them get along as a flock. Even if there’s not danger present, going outside for a bit gets them all focused on the possibility of danger and they stop focusing so much on whatever bird they want to chase. So that’s another mental break plus flock realignment of purpose.

It sounds like you are on the right track with your separation of feeding and water areas. I’d look carefully at lines of sight. I do put feed and water in my Guinea coop, though I don’t for the chicken coop. For my guineas, I just feel it’s more important to give them a lot of space between feeders. Also, all feeders have a broken line of sight from each other, see a bird feeding at Feeder A can’t see the bird eating at Feeder B. Ditto for the waterers. For the run, I designed it as a “circle”, which is split down the middle by long boards. Feeders are on opposite sides of the board. I also have roosts lining the run and subordinate birds spend a lot of time on those roosts. I tried to sketch this on an app but I think I’ll try some hand drawings and post them.

They free range every day- how long has varying factors, but usually a cpl of hours atleast. I've just stuck with always being nearby. - there's nothing like rounding a corner to see your flock in the road w/a farm semi excellerating toward them, calling as you run,suddenly realizing the driver is your hubby's estranged uncle you met once a cpl of decades ago...(you only realize this bc his name is painted to the side of the semi)...he slams on the brakes as they come running to you.So yeah, I stick close. Between AI, predators,harvest season,their dumbness and fascination w/the road, it's safer that way. As with yesterday, they usually stay in the garden area but for some reason once in awhile they get a wild feather -
You asked in other thread if I have 3 groups. I'm not sure how to answer that.
The colors really stick together above all else - 2 gray (M), 2 slate (M), 2 Violet (F).
The gray jumbos are pretty fluid in regard to who else is around. The "gang" consists of the 2 slates, the 2 violets, and Zuri (the oddball white male).
Numi, Willow & Mockie - they're loners. They neither hang with the gang nor each other. Numi used to pick on them when they were keets but not now. I feel like the stress from bullying is what led to her getting coccidiosis.
We're working on winterization today- clear tarps on sides, a brown pool cover on top. Pool cover is cool, it's not going to get blown around!! But I did move a feeder and water tank inside coop. Will work on line of sight and more escape routes. They do have roosts in the run.

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

They free range every day- how long has varying factors, but usually a cpl of hours atleast. I've just stuck with always being nearby. - there's nothing like rounding a corner to see your flock in the road w/a farm semi excellerating toward them, calling as you run,suddenly realizing the driver is your hubby's estranged uncle you met once a cpl of decades ago...(you only realize this bc his name is painted to the side of the semi)...he slams on the brakes as they come running to you.So yeah, I stick close. Between AI, predators,harvest season,their dumbness and fascination w/the road, it's safer that way. As with yesterday, they usually stay in the garden area but for some reason once in awhile they get a wild feather -
You asked in other thread if I have 3 groups. I'm not sure how to answer that.
The colors really stick together above all else - 2 gray (M), 2 slate (M), 2 Violet (F).
The gray jumbos are pretty fluid in regard to who else is around. The "gang" consists of the 2 slates, the 2 violets, and Zuri (the oddball white male).
Numi, Willow & Mockie - they're loners. They neither hang with the gang nor each other. Numi used to pick on them when they were keets but not now. I feel like the stress from bullying is what led to her getting coccidiosis.
We're working on winterization today- clear tarps on sides, a brown pool cover on top. Pool cover is cool, it's not going to get blown around!! But I did move a feeder and water tank inside coop. Will work on line of sight and more escape routes. They do have roosts in the run.

Yeah, guineas and roads are a bad match. Your semi incident sounds so scary!!!! Be careful of yourself! Can you put fencing of some kind up to discourage birds from going to the road?

So is it the “gang”, 2 violets, 2 slates and Zuri, that bully Numi, Mochie, and Willow? I’m not surprised that two (Mochie and Willow) got nominated as the “fringe” birds but I’m surprised that Numi did, given that she’s older. My older birds have so far stayed dominant to the younger birds until their first spring mating season antics. I can see why Numi would be stressed. Is she getting along with anyone? Where does she want to spend her time? I do think that fall is always a contentious time. Those mating pairs and trios need to reform as one functional flock, and I see a lot of pecking order issues. It’s when mine think they should each have 4 feet of roost space at night, which really doesn’t work. I’m forcing the issue right now by adding 18 juveniles, who are taking up more than a whole 8’ roost. It’s lucky for me that Bullet and Scout Orange decided that the keets are theirs, as the rest of the confusion is not about to challenge them.

You inspired me to try sketching out my current run and the plans I’ve not yet accomplished, in pink highlighter. In my case, I think that feeders/waterers on the roosts will help those subordinate birds. More roosts don’t really seem to be needed right now, but I think that once my juveniles are older and no longer enjoy their special protected status, I’ll need more roosts in the run. Those roosts are 1 ft from the outer walls. The planned sawhorse is to replace a metal garbage can that I’m using as a ladder. The cans get too hot/cold so I’d like to use something wooden instead.

As for lines of sight, those are the dashed lines. My thinking was that as a bird uses the auto door to enter the run from the coop, it does not have a direct line of sight to either run feeder so subordinate birds that are eating aren’t threatened. I had thought that dominant birds might jump onto the roost along the 2’ high dividing wall and threaten subordinate birds, but they don’t do that. I don’t know if that’s because I used an undesirable, skinny 1.5” wide roost there, whereas the others are 3.5”, or if the dominant birds just don’t care for the roosts as much. I’d guess the latter, as the dominant birds seldom use the run roosts but the subordinate birds spend a lot of time up there. My impression is that having the subordinate birds on the roosts is enough to satisfy the dominant birds need to have their space respected, even if both birds are actually only a few feet from each other. Another planned change not on this drawing is that I would like to have an elevated auto pop door from the coop to the run. I’ve noticed that subordinate birds get stuck on the coop roosts and don’t want brave the path from roost to that ground level auto door. An elevated door would allow them to move out to the run while staying out of the line of sight of dominant birds.

 

[Sydney65]

Yeah, guineas and roads are a bad match. Your semi incident sounds so scary!!!! Be careful of yourself! Can you put fencing of some kind up to discourage birds from going to the road?

So is it the “gang”, 2 violets, 2 slates and Zuri, that bully Numi, Mochie, and Willow? I’m not surprised that two (Mochie and Willow) got nominated as the “fringe” birds but I’m surprised that Numi did, given that she’s older. My older birds have so far stayed dominant to the younger birds until their first spring mating season antics. I can see why Numi would be stressed. Is she getting along with anyone? Where does she want to spend her time? I do think that fall is always a contentious time. Those mating pairs and trios need to reform as one functional flock, and I see a lot of pecking order issues. It’s when mine think they should each have 4 feet of roost space at night, which really doesn’t work. I’m forcing the issue right now by adding 18 juveniles, who are taking up more than a whole 8’ roost. It’s lucky for me that Bullet and Scout Orange decided that the keets are theirs, as the rest of the confusion is not about to challenge them.

You inspired me to try sketching out my current run and the plans I’ve not yet accomplished, in pink highlighter. In my case, I think that feeders/waterers on the roosts will help those subordinate birds. More roosts don’t really seem to be needed right now, but I think that once my juveniles are older and no longer enjoy their special protected status, I’ll need more roosts in the run. Those roosts are 1 ft from the outer walls. The planned sawhorse is to replace a metal garbage can that I’m using as a ladder. The cans get too hot/cold so I’d like to use something wooden instead.

As for lines of sight, those are the dashed lines. My thinking was that as a bird uses the auto door to enter the run from the coop, it does not have a direct line of sight to either run feeder so subordinate birds that are eating aren’t threatened. I had thought that dominant birds might jump onto the roost along the 2’ high dividing wall and threaten subordinate birds, but they don’t do that. I don’t know if that’s because I used an undesirable, skinny 1.5” wide roost there, whereas the others are 3.5”, or if the dominant birds just don’t care for the roosts as much. I’d guess the latter, as the dominant birds seldom use the run roosts but the subordinate birds spend a lot of time up there. My impression is that having the subordinate birds on the roosts is enough to satisfy the dominant birds need to have their space respected, even if both birds are actually only a few feet from each other. Another planned change not on this drawing is that I would like to have an elevated auto pop door from the coop to the run. I’ve noticed that subordinate birds get stuck on the coop roosts and don’t want brave the path from roost to that ground level auto door. An elevated door would allow them to move out to the run while staying out of the line of sight of dominant birds.

View attachment 3300564

I like the tunnel idea; I've wanted to do that but questioned if they'd used it...I'll def work on that, and it would be easy enough to put in a second pop door.
I thought mates would stick together through the winter, for body heat if nothing else. But you'd never guess Numi and Brodie were ever mates. Numi hangs with no one now, nor do the other two. Since everyone else is buddying up by color and same sex, My goal is to foster that in the 3 outcasts. Numi used to absolutely despise and target Willow,which I thought was odd, bc as a keet, she looked like a lav. Now she does tolerate her next to her on the roost & chewing from same plant in garden. Mochie is taking no chances w/Numi; she'll go to Willow's other side. So there's that, anyway.
Actually, I think the separation might be working. I was out there working all day today. There's been no bonding, but no bullying, either. Echo kind of went back and forth between the coop w/the 3 and being w/her sister. -We're close to 80° today, so it's not bc she was cold.

 

[Sydney65]

@Mixed flock enthusiast today, Himself pleaded w/me to stop thinking up new ideas. In reality, we both know he was talking to you...
I took 2 pallets standing up, and made a teepee. (His plea stems from always thinking he must step in and take over, lest the "little lady" hurt herself).
Once that was done, I put 2 weighted and lidded 5 gal buckets at a diagonal about 1' apart at the other end. When a bird comes out of the teepee, it can go straight, which gives it the option of going up,behind,infront of or through this roost(now in run).
Or cut between the buckets in any direction it chooses.
There was a long quiet conversation going on between the goons regarding what was going on. Once finished, Numi was 1st to explore. She approves, & thinks having food and water in the coop is pretty awesome, too.

 

[R2elk]

@Mixed flock enthusiast today, Himself pleaded w/me to stop thinking up new ideas. In reality, we both know he was talking to you...
I took 2 pallets standing up, and made a teepee. (His plea stems from always thinking he must step in and take over, lest the "little lady" hurt herself).
Once that was done, I put 2 weighted and lidded 5 gal buckets at a diagonal about 1' apart at the other end. When a bird comes out of the teepee, it can go straight, which gives it the option of going up,behind,infront of or through this roost(now in run).View attachment 3301860
Or cut between the buckets in any direction it chooses.
There was a long quiet conversation going on between the goons regarding what was going on. Once finished, Numi was 1st to explore. She approves, & thinks having food and water in the coop is pretty awesome, too.

I have always kept the food and water in my coops.

 

[Sydney65]

I have always kept the food and water in my coops.

That's just always been one of those "never do" rules I've read over and over, to avoid moisture and vermin, I guess. But it is working well.A week of musical roosts seems to have done some good. The younger 2 hens remain leary, but are starting to come out of coop more on their own,& Numi is a lot more active and curious.
Now I just have to snag his sawzall when he isn't looking and put in that second pop door...