Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[seabass327]

Quote:
I believe that most incubate since its a lot more convenient to plug in the incubator than wait for a hen to go broody. I would say its almost necessary if you're going to raise more than a few dozen per year. On the other hand, Its a lot less work to let a hen hatch and brood chicks. My guess is that if you bought dominiques, wyandottes, or any heritage type breed you would end up with one or two broody hens by default. I have a dozen dominiques from Ideal and a few of the hens went broody last year. This is just a personal preference, but in keeping with my interpretation of this thread, I think keeping silkies just to incubate and brood wouldn't be worth it. If your chosen breed won't go broody, I would add a breed that can be kept with all of your other birds and doesn't require special care (maybe silkies don't, I've never had one). Last summer I had 10 kraienkoppes and 3 sumatras that I got from Sandhill, and they all had to be broken from being broody at least once. Smaller game type breeds like these require very little care to do well, lay decently when laying, can be broody to a fault, and butcher just fine.
rich

 

[NotAFarm]

Quote:
I don't have an incubator, but then I don't plan on raising a hundred chicks a year either. I want my chicks raised by hens, if at all possible. I think a moderately broody, good mothering hen is an asset to me so I want to see if that trait exists in my hens and couldn't if I took their eggs and incubated them. I have a Silver Laced Wyandotte (from a breeder that shows) that is a great mom and I'm hoping her daughter (not her egg but she raised her) will have "learned" good mothering skills from her and the two of them will be my "incubators" this year (along with any others who are willing!). Just because a hen is "Show or Breeder" stock, doesn't mean it has lost all the qualities that make it a great homestead choice. Be sure to be truthful with the breeder you are considering getting stock from. Be up front with what you are looking for. My three "Breeder" SLW hens are culls from a show flock. Not up to what he feels is best but beautiful examples that suit me for what I want. If the breeder is a good one, they will be honest about the qualities of their flock, and you can look elsewhere if you aren't happy with what they are offering. Some show breeders may not want their stock to go to someone who isn't interested in showing, others will be happy to see you get what you are looking for. You may have to wait, like I did, until Aug/Sept for a breeder to make final decisions on what they will be keeping for themselves, but I feel it was worth it to me. As far as the silkies and cochins, I can't say, I live in Northern Illinois and don't feel feathered-footed breeds are a great choice for me.

 

[gallorojo]

On using broodies to hatch eggs-

First, I agree with seabass!! We raise Cubalayas, and they are FAR better broodies than any silkie or cochin will ever be. ( I have had silkies and cochins, too) Any of your small gamey type birds are the best broody hens. They will all go broody every year, even their first year, will set forever, don't poo the nests, don't attack or abandon chicks, tolerate being moved, etc. Most of the " dual-purpose breeds" will go broody in something like 10-20% of older hens, although some are poor broodies and mothers. We hatched out about 50-60 chicks last year, using nothing but broody hens. We could have easily done more, had I wanted to. Once you have the right system, it is a very nice way to do it. That being said, I am using an incubator sometimes currently, just so I can have more control over the timing. An incubator gives you far more control of when you hatch, but, you can really hatch a lot of chicks with broodies if you get good at it.

 

[WallTenters]

I agree - I don't have a whole lot of experience with bantams, but from what I've heard the game type hens always make the best mothers - and I remember we had one when I was a child that would constantly hide and hatch nests. One time she had a clutch of 32 chicks!!! We were overwhelmed - we had started with a handful of RIR hens and a friend had given us this little hen because us kids thought her feathers were pretty... lol. Our friends and neighbors had a lot of mixed little layers after that.

As far as mothering, I think my Dominique roosters are great! I have put chicks in with a hen, even though she was not broody, and she took care of them, but more in a stepmother kind of way... Our power had gone out and it was about 20 chicks, so I think she was a bit overwhelmed, but she did keep them warm for the night and had them out foraging in the morning.

 

[spartacus_63]

Quote:
If you look at poultry history in this country, that is what MADE the heritage breeds. All American Breeds, that I am familiar with, were developed for "Homestead" purposes previously stated. The RIR was bred for increased production after 1904 and that is where the split in the breed came from. Keep in mind that "Heritage" is a term new to poultry.

 

[cybercat]

OK I think I can help out and clear some of this up.

First off we are a small family just hubby and me. When I did my search for a breed I had certain requiremnets to meet. Free ranging was a must to cut feed cost. Broody a must since chicks raised by mothers are better than those that are not. More on this later. Size due to free ranging but not over that it would take too long to get their. Temperment for I will NOT deal with mean animals.

Now we live in an area where certain breeds a very common. So I wanted something that was not. Yes, that is harder in long run but I am doing this for me not anyone else. Very big point here folks. I studied long and hard went back and forth for over a year since we were looking for property then. My first became looks then change to size. Yes, we all fall in love with those lovely color chickens but that is not the end all to one that is homesteading. So size became my main focus first. I wanted something with hens over 6lbs to help with hawk predators not wanting to carry then off so much. I wanted top weight on males under 12 lbs. for reason of meat to feed ratio. Under 10 was even better from what I had read about some breeds Like Orps being bad that way. This weight range put me at 9 to 10 lbs on roosters and 6.5 to 8 lbs on hens. No more no less. Since I knew I was free ranging darker color without white was a must. Pattern was better for camofloge. This has been proven to me. Neibor up our street has buff orps he keeps loosing them and has lost 4 this year alone. I have not lost a chicken now for 8months I think. Last was due to a fox and my own lazyness. Did not close up coop at night.

Ok, what my breeding plan here is somewhat everyone has said production comes first. If it does not lay it is food for us and dog. Just do not tell her that for they are her babies.

I bought from a hatchery because one I had too and two it was easiest. But some hatchiers are better than others. I had read MM was having issues with aggressive lines and Ideal was not breeding true. Also since I wanted broody I was looking at breeds that were known for that in large breeds. So I looked at smaller hatcheries. Combs type was NOT an issue as I do not plan to show.

After reading stats on breeds and thier SOPs and reading the ALBC info on breeding for eggs and meat. I chose to use both to meet my needs. Since I knew I was going to have to breed up to SOP since hatchery chicks are under weight and off on SOP. Using the ALBC on breeding for production made sense combined with breeds SOP. Since I will not be raising a zillon chicks selction in order of needs comes first. So if it is not laying it is out. After that it is based on SOP faults. Color of skin and legs which shows first in chicks. Mine are to be yellow if not they are gone after 16 weeks or six months. Small body is gone at this point too unless I have number issues. I would keep a small body if it was producing and had good body if I am low in numbers like now. I am down to 11 hens. Oh I should say I am talking hens mostly here right now since we all have more needs for them. Roosters are a bit easier to choose as we only need a few so size on them is always large and color to SOP. Preferbly body too if that can be manged. I have two now one that meets SOP and one that does not. They are they only two that survive out of four. So until I breed some more that is what I have to deal with right now. Luckily my best one is dominate and will not let other breed.

Color in pattern waits till over a year old on hens. It has too as they improve with age and moults. Not a big issue here as I already got rid of big faults with skin color and size and production by that time. If a hen goes broody and raises her chicks well she is a keeper. Chicks raised by mom are better in size and live longer than those that are not raised by hens. I saw a huge differance between my first year ones I raised and second year that hens raised. Second year was bought from same hatchery also since I did not have a working rooster. But I had broodies so I put them under them to raise. After talking to some great breeders that also free range some chickens they too confirmed that hen raised chickens are better that incubator chicks raised in brooder. Must be they chick feed for hen raised teaches them how to forge. I watch my hens with chicks most every day. I do not work so I could. My main rooster learned real fast how good bugs were to eat. He would find one and run off so other chicks could not get it from him. The two roosters mostly hung out together and the pullets stay with mom most of the time. The 2 boys were never far from mom but ranged futher than pullets. Now they take the gals all over the place but mostly near high brush to have protection in case of a hawk. The males also call to gals when they find good things to eat and let girls have it. I guess in this case that old saying a way to a mans heart is threw his tummy is reversed for chickens.

Oh, chicks did not eat alot of chick feed. I only bought one bag and that had to be given to whole flock when chicks were old enough to eat normal. That was when they were 10 weeks. I think I filled feed twice a week unless a hen knocked it over. This batch was raised in main coop so hens would come in to lay or at night and would eat some but since they were ranging not much. What I was and still am using is the suacer puppy SS feeding dish. Works great since it keeps feed out on edge and not in middle of pan. Keeps hen out of feed too from standing in it. This year plan is too not feed a different feed from moms. Since what I feed now is high protien and large crumble I will shift it for chicks feed. I perfer not to have meds in chick feed and they get natural immunity for cocci. What ever chicks survive are they one I choose from those that do not I do not need. I will not coddle chicks for what is the reason of that when they have to survive on their own here.

So I am working with a heritage breed. I am breeding up too the SOP and for production. You can do both and save a breed. What this gives you is one more outlet for money. If you breed well more people will want to buy chicks from you. Since it is a rare breed you can get more money. So I will be able to sell eggs for eating and hatching and chicks to locals and maybe hens too for laying and meat. Now that is a total win situation.

 

[spartacus_63]

Quote:
I think that's kind of missing the entire point that us "SOP-thumping" folks are trying to make. That hen does NOT represent the breed, because she's not producing like she should. A true SOP heritage breed should fit the needs of the homesteader and the shower.

I certainly wouldn't keep beautiful pullets that don't lay - how would that help my breed? If I tell folks "oh yeah, they're pretty, but they don't lay much" 99% of new potential breeders are going to keep walking. But if I kept hens with pinched tails or poor combs, just because they laid jumbo eggs, they might get frostbit or eggbound and die, and that's not attractive either.

The goal of any good breeder is to focus on what their breed was originally intended for, and to try to bring out the best in that breed. There are set weight limits for breeds for a reason. And just because a bird weighs more doesn't mean his meat weighs more - what you're talking about there is carcass efficiency, and there's nothing in the standard that doesn't encourage efficiency whenever possible. If you want a bigger breed (aka longer bones), go get a bigger breed. Why start with a heritage bird if all you're talking about is changing them to fit your needs? That's not breeding heritage at all... You will lose something along the way, and in twenty years you'll look at your flock and realize you have a different color of CornishX or some new breed ready for the battery cage.

The underlying issue here is that at shows, they do not measure production (eggs or meat) so breeders are not motivated to production, they are motivated to type and color. You can buy birds from a breeder with great looking birds with no history of egg production. That to me is as bad or worse then breeding birds that are great producers but off color slightly. I know of folks that get birds to show and are not interested in eggs other than for a few breakfast eggs and for hatching. They do not need the quantity of the homestead breeds and are happy with that. It still does not make those birds good examples of layer breeds.

 

[Jared77]

The underlying issue here is that at shows, they do not measure production (eggs or meat) so breeders are not motivated to production, they are motivated to type and color. You can buy birds from a breeder with great looking birds with no history of egg production. That to me is as bad or worse then breeding birds that are great producers but of color slightly.

Exactly what I was trying to say.​

 

[Robert Blosl]

I got a quustion from a beginner about a month ago so I will ask you what do you think the average egg production of a Heritage Chicken should be in the pullets first year.

A Heritage Chicken is a bird that at least can score 92 points out of a hunderd. No hatchery chickens count here.

Rhode Island Red

Barred Plymouth Rock

Buff Wyandotte

Buff Orpington

White Leghorn

Light Brahma

Buff Cochin

Silver Pencilled Rocks

Partride Plymouth Rocks

White Fanced Black Spanish

All these breeds or colors are old time birds

It will be interesting what your thoughts are what they showed be. The standard of Perfection does not give any numbers on egg production.

Have you ever considered just crossing hathchery Rhode Island Reds onto Stnadard Rhode Island Red so you have both worlds.

Ideal Hatchery I think has done this. Some times I think a majorty of people want high egg production on a old fasion breed chicken like they did fifty years ago. Do you think this is possable with out using trap nest and spending all day long in the chicken house recording their laying. ???? I dont think we will ever see this again. I did see a standard rhode island red flock average 200 egg per year in its pullets and the pullets would average at least 94 points per female out of ten females for type and color. This was done with Harold Tompkins line in the 1950s who was considered the best Rhode Island Red breeder ever. He wanted a pullet to lay about 190 eggs per year to avoid ruputured ovia duchs which he felt would happen with females that layed more eggs per year. He rasied about 4,000 birds per year and sold eggs and chicks all over the country. Made a lot of money doing it and would get $100. for his males when sold to breeders in 1950.


All I can tell you if you are trying to preserve a rare breed you have to consider three areas. Egg production, meat and looks. They have to look like the breed and not try to look like a breed as if you went to the dog pound looking for a German Shepard dog or a Lab

bob

 

[spartacus_63]

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Just a question, how do are you going to build your reputation? you got your birds from Mcmurry right, why can't customers go there too? They would probably get birds that look and produce similar to your birds right? What would make costumers say, WOW, look at those birds sparticus has! and they lay over 250 eggs a year! I want some!

I think the standard kind of sets them apart gives you a goal to reach. Now if you want to breed to the standard and for production, then, that would give you a even tougher job, but, I bet it would pay off. If you can accomplish that then you would have a superb line. Just Imagine if there was a standard bred line that produced equally as well as your birds, I think many people would jump all over that. And that is my goal.

I know the standard is not for everyone, and most people only want egg layers or meat birds and they get them from a hatchery. most people don't want to take the time or don't have the space, I get that. That is fine I have nothing against that 2 years ago thats all I had and I was happy. Now, I want to save my breeds and I think the most effective way to do it; is to breed to the standard
JMHO, thanks for listening
PR

I'm not sure where you live or how you network, but I live in farm country. Here we get together for coffee at the locol diner, we share information at meetings and even church. We sell our produce at sales, farmers markets and even on Craig's List. I do not raise chickens to sell birds. I raise chickens to produce eggs and meat. I have a base of customers that has gotten bigger every year and it is predominately by word of mouth, which is representative of my reputation. Folks come to my place to buy eggs. They get to see my operations and my birds. I have traded in chickens but never as a primary purpose. At some point I would like to be able to market pullets and cockerals and maybe even chicks. I do not ever intend to raise enough chicks to sell them via the mail.

What sets my birds apart is their produce. I have birds that lay good eggs that people want. Some folks even want to get a few birds to keep for themselves or to add to their existing flock to boost their production. I have been told many times that I have great looking chickens. I have never been told that my birds are not quite up to standard so I don't want their eggs OR offspring.

I will tell you that the number of customers that I have that even know what the SOP is would be minuscule if any at all. What makes birds attractive to my customers is how well they produce and how vigorous they are. That is what makes them look good in my customers eyes. I would also venture to say that there are many more customers looking for birds like mine, then there are looking for SQ specific birds. And yes I do know that there are SOP type birds that can produce and are vigorous, they are not mutually exclusive. Responsible farmers will breed to enhance their flock/herd or they will suffer in profits.

My birds do not lay 250 eggs/year let alone over it. Closer to 200/year and this is a critical year to see if I am maintaining that number. My birds do follow the SOP for their breed. They are not 100 point birds by any stretch but the structure is what I am looking for. Color has little to do with production. Feather quality has more to do with hardiness, so it is higher on my priority list. As I understand your goals, they have shifted to raising bantams. Those are not heritage nor homestead birds and although they may look pretty, you will not have folks knocking on your door to buy eggs for breakfast.