WallTenters wrote:
From what I've told... it's exactly that thinking that has made many heritage breeds extinct or obsolete. Eventually, you're breeding something that doesn't match the breed at all because it's much bigger or lays better - you lose other qualities of the breed. Look at what happened to RIRs with the "production reds", look at what happened to Dominiques with the Dom/BR crosses that got passed off as Dominiques. They were larger, had bigger eggs, etc... it ruined the breed and made it go almost extinct.
That's different. Back then the transition was from the rural life to the city life. So production had to be pushed to meet the demands of the people living in the city. Less chickens were being kept so the ones that were kept had to lay more eggs, grow bigger faster to feed the population that was no longer growing its own food. So yes I can see where that would happen. But I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the people who want to raise their own food. Not so much for sale because then your back to the model I just listed its about performance and production. Getting extra is one thing, deliberately planning on specifically for sale is another. I'm talking about the small time person who is looking to keep their family in meat and eggs. They want to eat better and figure its worth having their own flock vs purchasing eggs or meat. They chose the breed they have because it fits or is a pretty close fit to what they want with what was available to them. So if they breed up a little bit on either the egg production or the overall size of the bird its not detritmental to the breed. What's a couple dozen more eggs from a barred rock over the course of a year or another pound over the standard if it suits their families needs? Its still a barred rock. Its one thing to try to get a meatier barred rock and cross it with a cornish, or a buckeye. Its another thing to select for the meatiest birds in your flock as your breeders to encourage a bit more size on them. Or trap nesting to push the egg production up in their line.
Your not looking at it from a homesteaders perspective. Your still looking at it from a breeders perspective. The priority IS on the production or its not worth having on the property for the homesteader. Be it meat, eggs, or both. It could be a textbook example of the breed physically I'm talking right out of the SOP to the letter this bird fits it right up to the point where she lays 40 eggs a year so guess what? She's soup. So that "good example" of the breed is out of the breeding flock. Why? Because she can't produce like she's supposed to. She does the homesteader no good and in fact could set them back in their breeding program. Technically she's probably not SOP because her production was so bad, but you can't tell how well a hens going to lay just by looking at her. Or worse buying birds from a reputable breeder who has what appears to be SOP birds based on pictures and his results at shows. How many of the Rocks or Orps or any of the other dual purpose breeds on Championship row lay like the breed's supposed to?
That bird doesn't pull its weight on the farm its gone. Thats how it works. Otherwise its just a lawn decoration thats costing the homesteader money to have around. I wouldn't want that bird regardless of its type in my flock. Why would I pass on her inability to lay? Form follow function. You have to build a barn before you paint it. All those sayings are true and what gets lost too often in these discussions. If the production isn't there, then you really don't have the breed either. Pencilling/barring/pattern/color, wing carriage, points on a comb, shank color are MEANINGLESS if the bird can't lay like the standard says and weigh/dress out at what the standard say they are supposed to. All that other stuff is just window dressing on a house with a sinking foundation. You keep all those factors in place then you work on the details like Pencilling/barring/pattern/color, wing carriage, points on a comb, shank color. Then you've got a breed.
From what I've told... it's exactly that thinking that has made many heritage breeds extinct or obsolete. Eventually, you're breeding something that doesn't match the breed at all because it's much bigger or lays better - you lose other qualities of the breed. Look at what happened to RIRs with the "production reds", look at what happened to Dominiques with the Dom/BR crosses that got passed off as Dominiques. They were larger, had bigger eggs, etc... it ruined the breed and made it go almost extinct.
That's different. Back then the transition was from the rural life to the city life. So production had to be pushed to meet the demands of the people living in the city. Less chickens were being kept so the ones that were kept had to lay more eggs, grow bigger faster to feed the population that was no longer growing its own food. So yes I can see where that would happen. But I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the people who want to raise their own food. Not so much for sale because then your back to the model I just listed its about performance and production. Getting extra is one thing, deliberately planning on specifically for sale is another. I'm talking about the small time person who is looking to keep their family in meat and eggs. They want to eat better and figure its worth having their own flock vs purchasing eggs or meat. They chose the breed they have because it fits or is a pretty close fit to what they want with what was available to them. So if they breed up a little bit on either the egg production or the overall size of the bird its not detritmental to the breed. What's a couple dozen more eggs from a barred rock over the course of a year or another pound over the standard if it suits their families needs? Its still a barred rock. Its one thing to try to get a meatier barred rock and cross it with a cornish, or a buckeye. Its another thing to select for the meatiest birds in your flock as your breeders to encourage a bit more size on them. Or trap nesting to push the egg production up in their line.
HaikuHeritageFarm wrote:
Breeding to size/body shape and even being sure things like skin color and comb type are on target are all things that will make a good utility homestead breed. But if you're culling your best layer because her lacing/barring/color is not the best, there's something wrong. If you're culling your meatiest rooster because he has an extra point on his comb or his tail is too dark, something's wrong.
punky rooster wrote:
it depands, Are those birds good examples of the breed?
Breeding to size/body shape and even being sure things like skin color and comb type are on target are all things that will make a good utility homestead breed. But if you're culling your best layer because her lacing/barring/color is not the best, there's something wrong. If you're culling your meatiest rooster because he has an extra point on his comb or his tail is too dark, something's wrong.
punky rooster wrote:
it depands, Are those birds good examples of the breed?
Your not looking at it from a homesteaders perspective. Your still looking at it from a breeders perspective. The priority IS on the production or its not worth having on the property for the homesteader. Be it meat, eggs, or both. It could be a textbook example of the breed physically I'm talking right out of the SOP to the letter this bird fits it right up to the point where she lays 40 eggs a year so guess what? She's soup. So that "good example" of the breed is out of the breeding flock. Why? Because she can't produce like she's supposed to. She does the homesteader no good and in fact could set them back in their breeding program. Technically she's probably not SOP because her production was so bad, but you can't tell how well a hens going to lay just by looking at her. Or worse buying birds from a reputable breeder who has what appears to be SOP birds based on pictures and his results at shows. How many of the Rocks or Orps or any of the other dual purpose breeds on Championship row lay like the breed's supposed to?
That bird doesn't pull its weight on the farm its gone. Thats how it works. Otherwise its just a lawn decoration thats costing the homesteader money to have around. I wouldn't want that bird regardless of its type in my flock. Why would I pass on her inability to lay? Form follow function. You have to build a barn before you paint it. All those sayings are true and what gets lost too often in these discussions. If the production isn't there, then you really don't have the breed either. Pencilling/barring/pattern/color, wing carriage, points on a comb, shank color are MEANINGLESS if the bird can't lay like the standard says and weigh/dress out at what the standard say they are supposed to. All that other stuff is just window dressing on a house with a sinking foundation. You keep all those factors in place then you work on the details like Pencilling/barring/pattern/color, wing carriage, points on a comb, shank color. Then you've got a breed.
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