Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[punky rooster]

Quote:
Thanks, YFH, Australorp was in the wrong spot, but what about La Fleche (ALBC didn't say)? What's their expected lay rate? Here's what I got from ALBC and a couple of other random sites, I'd love to hear what the corrections are!

Breed, Egg production, Broodiness, Market Weight
Dark Cornish, 50-80 eggs per year, non setters, 4.5-6.5 lbs
New Hampshire, 120-150, setter, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Buckeye, 120-150, setter, 5.5-8 lbs
Cubalaya 125-175, setters, 3-4.5 lbs
Red or Silver Grey Dorking, 150, setters, 6-8 lbs
Java, 150, setters, 6.5-8 lbs
La Fleche, 150-200 (?), non setters, 5.5-7 lbs
Catalana, 150, non setters, 5-6.5 lbs
Delaware, 150-200, setters, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Jersey Giants, 175-185, 8-11 lbs
Orpington 175-200, setters, 7-8.5 lbs
Wyandotte, 180-200, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Sussex, 200, setters, 6-7.5 lbs
Plymouth Rock, 200 +, setters, 6-8 lbs
Rhode Island Red, 250 +, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Australorp, 250+, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Dominique, 230-275, 4-6 lbs

I could guarantee you that buckeyes are more around 200.
The RIR numbers are for commercial birds, the standard bred ones I hear lay around 180 (is this correct chris or Bob?) If that is what you are looking for.......

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
Thanks, YFH, Australorp was in the wrong spot, but what about La Fleche (ALBC didn't say)? What's their expected lay rate? Here's what I got from ALBC and a couple of other random sites, I'd love to hear what the corrections are!

Breed, Egg production, Broodiness, Market Weight
Dark Cornish, 50-80 eggs per year, non setters, 4.5-6.5 lbs
New Hampshire, 120-150, setter, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Buckeye, 120-150, setter, 5.5-8 lbs
Cubalaya 125-175, setters, 3-4.5 lbs
Red or Silver Grey Dorking, 150, setters, 6-8 lbs
Java, 150, setters, 6.5-8 lbs
La Fleche, 150-200 (?), non setters, 5.5-7 lbs
Catalana, 150, non setters, 5-6.5 lbs
Delaware, 150-200, setters, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Jersey Giants, 175-185, 8-11 lbs
Orpington 175-200, setters, 7-8.5 lbs
Wyandotte, 180-200, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Sussex, 200, setters, 6-7.5 lbs
Plymouth Rock, 200 +, setters, 6-8 lbs
Rhode Island Red, 250 +, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Australorp, 250+, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Dominique, 230-275, 4-6 lbs

I could guarantee you that buckeyes are more around 200.
The RIR numbers are for commercial birds, the standard bred ones I hear lay around 180 (is this correct chris or Bob?) If that is what you are looking for.......

Ya, I would say 180 to 200 eggs a year on most non-production lines.
The weight that was posted for the Rhode Island Reds is off. The American SOP call for -
Cocks 8½ Hens 6½
Cockerels 7½ Pullets 5½
Most all of my Rhode Island Red Roosters (Rose and Single Comb) weigh in at 9 to 9½ pounds.

On the Dominique the weight should be -
Cocks 7 Hens 5
Cockerels 6 Pullets 4

Might want to double check the weighs with the SOP most of the weight look off.

Chris

 

[biomistake]

I processed 5 cocks saturday and size and meatiness the two dels came in first with the PRIR next followed by two mixed breed from last year. I guess what I am getting at is the Delawares are very nice birds to raise for meat and eggs.*for me mileage varies for others* The roosters make sizable table fare and the hens lay 5-6 days a week. I am working on my delawares toward the SOP as that will give me even better table fare and like Yellow Farm stated more consistency if someone wants to buy one I know they will come back due to the quality of the bird. I am really enjoying and learning from this thread along with several other concerning the heritage subject matter.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote:
I guess the difference I see here is that you are talking about a business venture. Though, frankly, I don't really see why consistency (re one breed) would be that important in that case either. I simply want to be self sufficient and don't care about having customers. I have plenty of family to fill freezers for. In light of that, I think having more than one breed is rather exciting. I look forward to tasting the differences. I often considered ordering poultry from Frank Reese's farm. http://www.reeseturkeys.net/category.sc?categoryId=2 I know he sells Barred Rocks, Jersey Giants, New Hampshires, turkeys, ducks, geese, guinea, etc. Your order is labeled with which type of meat, of course. 4 Plymouth Rocks, New Hampshires, or Jersey Giants - 12 pounds of chicken (butchered and frozen) for $60.

I read your thread and if I had one breed to have on my farm and wanted it for your reasons I would not hesitate to get Frank Reeses Barred Plymouth Rocks. You cant order from Frank Reese or drive to his farm and get some birds. It is a closed farm for biosecurity reasons.
However Jermey in Iowa has his birds plus two other people. They are sharing and selling hatching eggs and I am on this list. These great birds are breed for taste. He sells his dreased birds for taste. He has spent years breeding all his breeds for ths he told me.

You will not get this from a breeder or a hatchery. All the other breeds that might be good or could be good is just others opinions.

I am a Heritage Rhode Island Red man. I am trying to get my old strain back that I rasied that goes back to 1912.

There are only about two people who still have my old line.

I would rasie these birds and try to keep them at the level that I had them and I am sure they would be good eating as well.

They wont lay eggs like the world famous Production Reds do but at least they are the Real Rhode Island Reds like they breed years ago. bob

 

[Mervin]

Quote:
I saw the Bittenbender article in "Building Plans for Poultrymen and Practical Methods of Poultry Raising" too. I did find mention of it earlier though. "Poultry Houses and Fixtures", published in 1919 by the Reliable Poultry Journal Publishing company, mentions the designer as a Dr. P. T. Woods. I've seem similar structures pictured in photographs of J. W. Park's poultry plant, Wopsy Poultry Yards, in Altoona, PA. When I was researching coops last spring. I ran across it and was interested b/c the Altoona is only about 60 miles SW of me. It got me interested in an open-air design.

Wood's book, "Fresh-Air Poultry Houses", is currently being reprinted by Norton Creek Press. Norton Creek Press is Robert Plamondon's publishing operation. If you scroll down the page for "Fresh-Air Poultry Houses", the pictures of the J.W. Parks' houses under the heading "Colony or Long Houses—Which?".


Added Links
Open-Air Pultry Houses
Poultry Houses and Fixtures

 

[junglebird]

Quote:
Would that be just for RIR, or also Australorp, Plymouth Rock, Dominique, ...?

Quote:
Chris, the weights I listed are carcass weights. If the weights you report are live weights, then they seem about right.

Punky's 200 count on the Buckeyes is entered below, and the 180 count on the heritage RIR.

Breed, Egg production, Broodiness, Market Weight
Dark Cornish, 50-80 eggs per year, non setters, 4.5-6.5 lbs
New Hampshire, 120-150, setter, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Buckeye, 120-200, setter, 5.5-8 lbs
Cubalaya 125-175, setters, 3-4.5 lbs
Red or Silver Grey Dorking, 150, setters, 6-8 lbs
Java, 150, setters, 6.5-8 lbs
La Fleche, 150-200 (?), non setters, 5.5-7 lbs
Catalana, 150, non setters, 5-6.5 lbs
Delaware, 150-200, setters, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Jersey Giants, 175-185, 8-11 lbs
Orpington 175-200, setters, 7-8.5 lbs
Wyandotte, 180-200, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Sussex, 200, setters, 6-7.5 lbs
Plymouth Rock, 200 +, setters, 6-8 lbs
Rhode Island Red, 180 (heritage), 250 + (production), 5.5-7.5 lbs
Australorp, 250+, 5.5-7.5 lbs
Dominique, 230-275, 4-6 lbs

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hi Jungle! Those numbers sound about right. But I'd take them all as theories and somtimes as past achievements to which one still makes reference but which are not necessarily currently accurrate. Both egg-laying capacity and dressed weight are going to be highly strain specific; so, you won't really know what your particular birds are going to do until you grow them out and live with them for a season or so. Of course, if you're getting stock from a breeder who maintains production records, you'll probably have a better idea of what to expect.

Hi Kathy! I hope you weren't feeling offended by what I wrote. I was only trying to clarify the angle from which we approach things. I certainly understand the fun of using multiple varieties, and were we not to have the business aspect, it very well might change our approach. Indeed, it is the business aspect that led to many of our decisions. On the other hand, last season we raised up a handful of Old English Games just to sample the meat. I had read so many references to it, I wanted to have a first hand experience.

Still, I do hope to keep the lines open for dialogue about the needs of farming with heritage poultry, because they bring with them a certain set of needs. They also lead to a type of breed security that has merit. Of course, I hope that this thread edifies all use of heritage poultry for productivity, and I hope, too, that other farmers, or would-be farmers, discover the thread and bring their experiences and needs to the dialogue.

These are concerns that we deal with frequently when aspiring small-scale local farmers contact us? This coming Wednesday we are participating on a panel for farmers and would-be farmers at the university. The topic is about developing a farm business that attends to the local market with an underpinning od sustainability. From past experience, I can guess a lot of the questions that will come my way. I'll be asked about breeds, levels of productivity, niche market possibilities. On several points I'll be able to answer concretely, but on others I'll have to be more non-committal.

The fact is that I can tell people what a breed is supposed to do, but I cannot with any certainty tell them what a given breed is going to do. I don't mean this, though, because of the random occurrences of life that can undermine any endeavor, but rather I say it because of the general inaccessibility to immediately available stock that comes with records of solid breeding for productive qualities.

It seems almost ridiculous to say it, but, to a great extent, a farmer has to be a bit of a pioneer, or risk taker, to choose heritage poultry at the current time. From our experience, there are two primary factors. The first is that which I've already mentioned: a lack of reliable breeding for productivity in a strain. The second is the inability to procure stock in any real volume. This is something to which Bob has alluded, as well, even for show birds. It can be hard to get a shipment of 25 showbred chicks of a single breed. I wonder how many breeders could supply a hundred chicks in a single shipment. Imagine now the chagrin of trying to find a source of 100 heritage chicks in one breed from a proven strain that are going to consistently lay 200 eggs per annum and dress out to a quality bird of consistent size. This, though, is the need of a beginning farmer, and it can be a really tall order to fill with the current status quo.

Now, it seems that these Barred Plymouth Rocks from Reese might fill the bill. But are there others in other breeds? I'm not sure. I've not hear of one yet. My mind goes to the ALBC Buckeyes. Is there a source that can provide a 100 chick shipment of the ALBC improved strain of Buckeyes? If we get to the point where we have this kind of availability in ten breeds, it could be a real game changer for heritage poultry. Thus, I do not want this kind of conversation to be guilt inducing for those who aren't interested--certainly not. Nevertheless, it would be fantastic if this thread were also discovered by would-be breeders who wish to maintain a conservation flock in a heritage large fowl variety with goals for productive excellence. This is such a colossal endeavor that the support of a good chat could be invaluable.

For example, thanks to Bob, I've discovered John Henry Robinson's Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture on Google Books. It contains the most well thought out and informative section on natural incubation I have ever encountered. For a few years now I've been trying to think out a good system for working 20 to 30 broodies simultaneously. I've been piecing together info for ages, a snippet here and a snippet there, but thanks to Bob's reading recommendation, I have a clearer notion of proper rhythm than ever. It's this kind of info that I'm hoping to draw out on this thread.

The last couple of days, I've been imagining the sight of a conservation flock of productive Stnadard-bred Lakenvelders. Wouldn't that be a lovely sight?

 

[Mervin]

Quote:
I guess the difference I see here is that you are talking about a business venture. Though, frankly, I don't really see why consistency (re one breed) would be that important in that case either. I simply want to be self sufficient and don't care about having customers. I have plenty of family to fill freezers for. In light of that, I think having more than one breed is rather exciting. I look forward to tasting the differences. I often considered ordering poultry from Frank Reese's farm. http://www.reeseturkeys.net/category.sc?categoryId=2 I know he sells Barred Rocks, Jersey Giants, New Hampshires, turkeys, ducks, geese, guinea, etc. Your order is labeled with which type of meat, of course. 4 Plymouth Rocks, New Hampshires, or Jersey Giants - 12 pounds of chicken (butchered and frozen) for $60.

I totally get the need for consistency. Right now, I like my mixed flock b/c basically it's an audition. I'm not really sure that I'm at a point where I can concentrate on a single heritage breed as much as I might like to. I am, however, taking stock of which traits I like best. I thought, when I started, that I'd like the dark eggs best so I got some Welsummers. Overall, I'd put them all in the stew pot but my little girl likes them and they seem to forage well (nice yolks). She also wants "fluffy" chickens like Cochins and my son seems to like blue-egg layers. Myself, I want something that is worth butchering when I've got too many cockerels. If they were simply my birds of choice, the kids would be less interested and learning far less from the experience. For those reasons, the mixed flock seems necessary for now.

Once my kids aren't as interested I do intend to concentrate. And, utility is foremost on my mind. Shows and pretty chickens are nice, but I have birds primarily b/c they're a "working" animal. Once I'm able to concentrate, I think that consistency (and record keeping) would make selection far less complicated. Also, I'd think it would make it much easier to pick out when things are going wrong. I think the consistency would help you to "know your birds" better. If you had a line that generally laid 180 eggs-a-year and produced broilers with a decent breast, then a shift away from that norm would be a tell-tale sign that something was up. If your broilers were scrawny or if egg production dipped of all sudden, you'd sure want to check you're breeding practices. If you're hens generally laid similar-sized, similar-colored eggs, one that was larger or smaller or off-colored would stick out like a sore thumb b/c of the consistency.

In terms of science, it could be kind of like trying to limit the number of independent variables. If you're flock was generally consistent and you decide to make a breeding change, you can be more confident that your change caused the result. For example (greatly oversimplified) let's say your flock is great and very consistent but they all have terrible combs. If you introduce new blood w/ good combs it would be much easier to determine the results of that outcross.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Thanks, Bob, for the confirmation on the Reese strain of Rocks. It seems to me, too, that he (reese) just published an article in the Poultry Press on selecting Barred Rocks for productivity. It was an article startlingly chaulk full of selection specifics.

Kathy, your NH's are very lovely. Have you also found them to be well fleshed and productive? What kind of availability is there for that strain?


For us, one of the limiting factors is comb type. I live just a few miles from where I grew up, where my pop's Buff Rocks would only get a bit of a frosting, but on our particular property the frostbite is murderous--black down to the skull. A recent Brown Leghorn Club article in the Poultry Press (a column in which I often find some rather cool tid-bits) may have elucidated the reasons for the stark difference. Until my childhood property, which is high and dry. Our farm is on lake level, and there is a stronger moisture element, which I think might cause the exagerated frostbite. This is the primary reason for which we hold to RC birds.

 

[buffalogal]

I realize you are trying to broaden purpose of the thread, but the more you write, the more exclusive it seems to be becoming. The thread started out talking about heritage fowls for use on the homestead, and now it's morphing into focusing on one breed for (small scale) commercial production.

Quote:
Why would you think someone with more than one breed wouldn't be able to do that? In over 20 years, A have added new Anconas one time only; to get the rose comb. With the Dominques, I started with several tightly linebred birds that were immediately throwing a serious fault. The breeder I got my birds from recommended outcrossing, and I did, choosing birds from two different sources. In almost 15 years since then, I've added new birds only once.

Quote:
But in keeping multiple species, you already *are* dividing your effort between the goose, the chicken, the duck and the rabbit. As far as the work involved and the mental exercise involved in making good decisions for breeding, to me, it would seem that having three or four different species is the same as having four different breeds of chickens.

Is your point that keeping only one breed equals true, ALBC sanctioned, rare breed conservation, while maintaining more than one means it's automatically just a superficial hobby? I believe that would depend on how much time and effort and thought you put into the other breed(s). If they're just running around the farm receiving little or no effort at attempting to breed toward a goal, then yes, I can see why you would think additional breeds would simply be a waste of time and resources, conservation wise. But if one takes the same care with the second or third breed as they do with the first (or the duck or the goose or the rabbit), then nothing is wasted, and the chosen breeds are well served.

I agree that growing and marketing 300 processed broilers a year is farming, but raising birds for one's own table (or marketing eggs rather than carcasses) does not automatically mean that person only has a yard full of pets. Not all the old breeds were Delawares, specifically created and bred for what would now be considered small scale commercial broiler production. Quite a few were developed casually, almost accidentally, to provide eggs and occasional meat for the table. Depending on the breed selected, the modern homesteader eating maybe one bird every couple of weeks is more in tune with the original purpose of the breed than even a micro scale commercial processor.