Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gjensen]

It would be difficult to debate that gut health affects the overall health of the animal to include people. A lot starts in the gut. There is more nerve receptors in the gut, than anywhere else in the body. You could say that the stomach is a second brain. More information is sent from the gut to the brain than from brain to the gut. Before that is misunderstood, the brain does not micromanage.

How to best encourage good gut health is more debatable. There are a lot of good ideas here. My position would be that there is a balanced approach, and not try to do too much. The system works without our intervention if the micro flora is present in their environment, and that their conditions have not become unhealthy.

There is a lot to be said for "naturally" reared chicks. That is by broody hens. However, it is helpful to understand that it is not without it's pitfalls and limitations. It would also be unhelpful to imply that artificially reared chicks cannot be as vigorous and healthy.

Karen, I agree that appropriately sized grit should be available to growing and adult birds. I think that most would agree. It is a pretty simple concept that has been understood for a long time. Other animals like crocodilians and some species of lizards benefit from grit as well.

I am not especially comfortable with the notion that corn is bad on it's own. It is true that corn is not what it was, but an argument could be made that it has been improved for our needs. In the diet of poultry, it supplies energy, and no grain is better at supplying it. Certainly it would not be healthy on it's own, but as part of a balanced ration, it does no harm. As a vegetable on my table, I see it as a treat, and little more.
I believe the key here, is to put it in perspective, and not expect too much from it. Also not to blame too much on it. In the diet of poultry, there is a role for it if it is part of a balanced ration. The alternatives have shortcomings and pitfalls of their own. There is not anything that does not.
When we took jungle fowl from the jungle, and expected more from them, we changed their dietary needs. As it stands now, there are no perfect food items. There is a lot of poultry to be fed in this world. What would we suggest as a better alternative?

I would not debate that too much corn in various forms in our own diet could be harmful. We certainly consume a lot in one form or another. I do think that it has become a convenient villain though. It is certainly a dominant player. Let us not overlook the good it has done, and take a balanced approach. It isn't as if it is poisonous or toxic.
Please do not take this as an attempt to discredit your position. I only want to add my perspective.

 

[DesertChic]

Our commercialized agricultural industry claims "corn is good!" and so we believe it, and we eat, both directly and through our animals, and we don't question it because it's been the norm for so long. And it's more affordable and more convenient that growing crops for our animals to supply them with whole foods.
=========
Had a collie pup years ago ( not related to any of my breeding stock I ever had) who was allergic to corn. Very allergic. I was just starting in dogs and couldn't figure out how to heal the weeping sore on his back. I tried everything for over a year. Including eliminating corn by using a barley and turkey kibble. Nothing worked and eventually he went to another home and they found him allergic to corn. I was astonished because I had tried this barley and turkey kibble to no effect. I didn't try lamb and rice because the barley and turkey hadn't worked. Why duplicate failure? L and R eventually was successful with that dog. What happened? How did I miss it? The corn allergy? I did some further digging and eventually found out they fed the turkeys corn. And there was turkey digest in the kibble. The digest contained just enough corn to make this collie pup react. I was astonished and now check not only the ingredients but what is behind them as well.
Best,
Karen
Now I will only feed my collies Fromm feed. To my knowledge the only company I can find without a recall.
Small family company. No corn, wheat, soy.

That is so sad! Poor puppy to have go through all of that!

Our local vet also happens to be my neighbor and a good friend. When we acquired one of our rescued dogs, Kida, she was plagued with a mind-boggling number of health issues that left her emaciated and on the brink of death. I had long talks with our vet friend about what to do, focusing most of my suggestions on diet instead of medications. He was the skeptical sort and finally threw up his hands and said, "Do what you want. It certainly can't hurt. Your puppy will be dead by the end of the week anyway." (He can be that blunt with me. We have that kind of relationship.) So....I plowed forward, making my own "dog food" from the same foods my family and I eat and some whole-food supplements I use to boost our overall health, pureeing it along with homemade chicken stock, and literally "injecting" it down Kida's throat six times a day on that first day because she had stopped eating and drinking. The next morning she was willingly standing on her own, wagging her tail, eating and drinking. Now she's 11 years old and roughly 100 lbs. Granted she's nearing the end of her life cycle and has suffered minor health problems throughout her life, but overall she's been healthy, happy, and just a wonderful dog....and I made a believer of our vet. He even changed the pet foods he sells at his clinic after that, focusing on corn-free and soy-free products.

 

[DesertChic]

It would be difficult to debate that gut health affects the overall health of the animal to include people. A lot starts in the gut. There is more nerve receptors in the gut, than anywhere else in the body. You could say that the stomach is a second brain. More information is sent from the gut to the brain than from brain to the gut. Before that is misunderstood, the brain does not micromanage.

How to best encourage good gut health is more debatable. There are a lot of good ideas here. My position would be that there is a balanced approach, and not try to do too much. The system works without our intervention if the micro flora is present in their environment, and that their conditions have not become unhealthy.

There is a lot to be said for "naturally" reared chicks. That is by broody hens. However, it is helpful to understand that it is not without it's pitfalls and limitations. It would also be unhelpful to imply that artificially reared chicks cannot be as vigorous and healthy.

Karen, I agree that appropriately sized grit should be available to growing and adult birds. I think that most would agree. It is a pretty simple concept that has been understood for a long time. Other animals like crocodilians and some species of lizards benefit from grit as well.

I am not especially comfortable with the notion that corn is bad on it's own. It is true that corn is not what it was, but an argument could be made that it has been improved for our needs. In the diet of poultry, it supplies energy, and no grain is better at supplying it. Certainly it would not be healthy on it's own, but as part of a balanced ration, it does no harm. As a vegetable on my table, I see it as a treat, and little more.
I believe the key here, is to put it in perspective, and not expect too much from it. Also not to blame too much on it. In the diet of poultry, there is a role for it if it is part of a balanced ration. The alternatives have shortcomings and pitfalls of their own. There is not anything that does not.
When we took jungle fowl from the jungle, and expected more from them, we changed their dietary needs. As it stands now, there are no perfect food items. There is a lot of poultry to be fed in this world. What would we suggest as a better alternative?

I would not debate that too much corn in various forms in our own diet could be harmful. We certainly consume a lot in one form or another. I do think that it has become a convenient villain though. It is certainly a dominant player. Let us not overlook the good it has done, and take a balanced approach. It isn't as if it is poisonous or toxic.
Please do not take this as an attempt to discredit your position. I only want to add my perspective.

For the record I LOVE that you post your perspective and knowledge. I've learned a ton from your posts both here and on the Breeding for Production thread, and I love a good dialog/debate.

As far as corn in the diet is concerned, I hold onto my reservations. The organic starter formula I'm currently using for this, my first flock of chickens, contains both corn and non-GMO soy (another product I'm not fond of unless it's fermented, which releases toxins, improves digestibility, and improves nutrient absorption). I've recently found a local wholesale buyers club for locally grown, processed and freshly packaged feed that's corn-free, soy-free and canola-free and am anxiously awaiting delivery date. I'll be switching to this feed expeditiously and am curious to see how my chickens do on it. When I finally purchase more chickens, I will probably start with this local feed rather than buying from the feed stores. I maintain detailed documentation on how all of my chicks are doing, track their progress daily as well as weekly, and take pictures at least once per week. (I'm a bit of a nerd. Does it show?) While I may hold a strong opinion, I'm also very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. You can't learn if you never admit "failure", and I learned long ago not to fear failure and as this is my first experience raising chickens, I'm eager to learn from books, other people, and lots of personal experience.

Consequently, what started me on the anti-corn-in-chicken-feed was short-term adventure caring for my neighbors' chickens while they were on vacation. They use a largely corn and soy based chicken feed that's pretty inexpensive, and their chickens looked AWFUL when I first started caring for them. (White leghorns.) They also produced eggs with exceedingly thin, fragile, and spot-textured shells that were often irregularly shaped. During the two weeks I cared for them I fed them scraps from my garden, grasshoppers and grubs that I collected, and nuts, seeds, and whole grains that I pre-soaked and I felt were nearing the end of their optimal storage time in my pantry. Everything changed for those birds. They all but stopped eating the chicken feed, which I still supplied fresh to them every day, and began laying some really large, beautiful eggs twice per day instead of once. When my neighbors came back they were stunned by how much healthier their chickens seemed, and by the volume and quality of eggs they continued to receive for a couple days afterwards. The yolks were much, much darker and the eggs tasted a lot better. That was my first experiment, and it left quite an impression on me.

 

[Beekissed]

I agree with the need for balance. One simply cannot escape GMO corn in all our foods any longer so all anyone can do is make the best of that with balancing it with other forms of feed and food(for us humans). I don't even try to escape it in the chicken's or dog's food...I'm not made of money and they get the cheapest, but best for the money I can afford. On the other hand, they free range for most of their diet and the dog is fed many different kinds of good food to round out his diet...he too is a forager of a sort. He gets healthy food scraps from the garden and from what we eat and he also catches his own raw meat in the form of rabbits, mice, ground squirrels. We also give him deer scraps, chicken bones and meat scraps from our own butchering.

We grow our own, butcher our own and harvest our own foods from the woods and coop. Yes, my chickens eat the evil GMO corn...it's been fermented to remove many of the negative aspects of the grains in their feed, to boost nutrition and gut flora. No bad looking chickens here. The fermented feed renders their eggs mild and nutty in flavor, as it also does their meat.

All in moderation, a good balance of the natural foods and the oh, so necessary corn grain and soy proteins found in most chicken and dog feeds. It works, the animals thrive, and I still have money in my pocket.

 

[DesertChic]

I agree with the need for balance. One simply cannot escape GMO corn in all our foods any longer so all anyone can do is make the best of that with balancing it with other forms of feed and food(for us humans). I don't even try to escape it in the chicken's or dog's food...I'm not made of money and they get the cheapest, but best for the money I can afford. On the other hand, they free range for most of their diet and the dog is fed many different kinds of good food to round out his diet...he too is a forager of a sort. He gets healthy food scraps from the garden and from what we eat and he also catches his own raw meat in the form of rabbits, mice, ground squirrels. We also give him deer scraps, chicken bones and meat scraps from our own butchering.

We grow our own, butcher our own and harvest our own foods from the woods and coop. Yes, my chickens eat the evil GMO corn...it's been fermented to remove many of the negative aspects of the grains in their feed, to boost nutrition and gut flora. No bad looking chickens here. The fermented feed renders their eggs mild and nutty in flavor, as it also does their meat.

All in moderation, a good balance of the natural foods and the oh, so necessary corn grain and soy proteins found in most chicken and dog feeds. It works, the animals thrive, and I still have money in my pocket.

You raise a really interesting point here. To be honest, until yesterday I'd never even considered fermenting any of the chicken feed....and I actually think one of your posts somewhere planted the idea in my mind, and now I have to devote some time to researching the process and then beginning. I'm thoroughly intrigued by the idea! And, it would make sense that fermenting corn would dramatically improve its healthfulness, just like fermenting soy does. Hmm...I love when you guys make me think.

 

[gjensen]

For the record I LOVE that you post your perspective and knowledge. I've learned a ton from your posts both here and on the Breeding for Production thread, and I love a good dialog/debate.

As far as corn in the diet is concerned, I hold onto my reservations. The organic starter formula I'm currently using for this, my first flock of chickens, contains both corn and non-GMO soy (another product I'm not fond of unless it's fermented, which releases toxins, improves digestibility, and improves nutrient absorption). I've recently found a local wholesale buyers club for locally grown, processed and freshly packaged feed that's corn-free, soy-free and canola-free and am anxiously awaiting delivery date. I'll be switching to this feed expeditiously and am curious to see how my chickens do on it. When I finally purchase more chickens, I will probably start with this local feed rather than buying from the feed stores. I maintain detailed documentation on how all of my chicks are doing, track their progress daily as well as weekly, and take pictures at least once per week. (I'm a bit of a nerd. Does it show?) While I may hold a strong opinion, I'm also very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. You can't learn if you never admit "failure", and I learned long ago not to fear failure and as this is my first experience raising chickens, I'm eager to learn from books, other people, and lots of personal experience.

Consequently, what started me on the anti-corn-in-chicken-feed was short-term adventure caring for my neighbors' chickens while they were on vacation. They use a largely corn and soy based chicken feed that's pretty inexpensive, and their chickens looked AWFUL when I first started caring for them. (White leghorns.) They also produced eggs with exceedingly thin, fragile, and spot-textured shells that were often irregularly shaped. During the two weeks I cared for them I fed them scraps from my garden, grasshoppers and grubs that I collected, and nuts, seeds, and whole grains that I pre-soaked and I felt were nearing the end of their optimal storage time in my pantry. Everything changed for those birds. They all but stopped eating the chicken feed, which I still supplied fresh to them every day, and began laying some really large, beautiful eggs twice per day instead of once. When my neighbors came back they were stunned by how much healthier their chickens seemed, and by the volume and quality of eggs they continued to receive for a couple days afterwards. The yolks were much, much darker and the eggs tasted a lot better. That was my first experiment, and it left quite an impression on me.

There is no concrete evidence that soybeans or corn in a balanced ration is harmful to the birds. I would attribute the health of your neighbor's bird to other concerns. Just because their feed had soybeans and corn in it, does not explain their poor condition. There could be any number of possibilities that could have been an alternate explanation. It could have been old feed, poorly balanced, etc. The grain used might have been a problem. Possibly they had a bad case of worms, cocci, mites, or lice coupled with poor feed.
The two main ingredients in the feed my birds get is corn and soybeans. Of course there is other ingredients, and it is balanced etc. I promise that they are in excellent condition though.

Not all feed mixes are the same. Some are superior to others. I decided to try a local mix that cost less. I watched my birds lose condition and weight before I switched back. I am not certain what the difference was as the ingredients were very similar. Still, it was obvious that it was poor feed.

I have to concede that you must have been feeding them something that is pretty amazing to get them to lay twice per day. Also to correct a calcium deficiency that fast, and even correct their inclination to lay poorly shaped eggs. Then to even improve the size of their eggs.

I would go as far today to say that our poultry industry past and present was built on corn, and the mechanization of it's harvest.

They key is not so much the choice of the food items (though it does matter), but that it is appropriately balanced. Every ingredient presents it's own problems, and it's insufficiencies. Corn has it's problems, and soybeans has it's problems. The alternatives will have common or different problems.

There is nothing wrong with trying new feeds, and feed ingredients. You may very well find an improvement that you prefer. Just be cautious about definite conclusions. There is an immense amount of variables to consider from year to year.

 

[gjensen]

I agree with the need for balance. One simply cannot escape GMO corn in all our foods any longer so all anyone can do is make the best of that with balancing it with other forms of feed and food(for us humans). I don't even try to escape it in the chicken's or dog's food...I'm not made of money and they get the cheapest, but best for the money I can afford. On the other hand, they free range for most of their diet and the dog is fed many different kinds of good food to round out his diet...he too is a forager of a sort. He gets healthy food scraps from the garden and from what we eat and he also catches his own raw meat in the form of rabbits, mice, ground squirrels. We also give him deer scraps, chicken bones and meat scraps from our own butchering.

We grow our own, butcher our own and harvest our own foods from the woods and coop. Yes, my chickens eat the evil GMO corn...it's been fermented to remove many of the negative aspects of the grains in their feed, to boost nutrition and gut flora. No bad looking chickens here. The fermented feed renders their eggs mild and nutty in flavor, as it also does their meat.

All in moderation, a good balance of the natural foods and the oh, so necessary corn grain and soy proteins found in most chicken and dog feeds. It works, the animals thrive, and I still have money in my pocket.

You know, I would have no objections to genetically modified organisms if they strictly remained within a species, or at least within a family. We have been manipulating the genetics of plants and animals for thousands of years. If we can realize positive results responsibly in a lab faster, then so be it, if they choose. I will admit that I am uncomfortable with genetic manipulation that crosses species or especially goes outside of families. I do not have some of the same concerns that some have, but I can imagine unintended consequences.

Similar to yourself, I do not get too worked up over their feed. I try to get what I decide is best, and that I can get "fresh" reliably. I do feel that opening their coop door and allowing them to range is the best thing that I can add to their diet. I do supplement with some whole grains (to include corn). This more of a "training aid" than anything. I will also give them misc. scraps as they come available.

 

[LindaB220]

I agree with the need for balance. One simply cannot escape GMO corn in all our foods any longer so all anyone can do is make the best of that with balancing it with other forms of feed and food(for us humans). I don't even try to escape it in the chicken's or dog's food...I'm not made of money and they get the cheapest, but best for the money I can afford. On the other hand, they free range for most of their diet and the dog is fed many different kinds of good food to round out his diet...he too is a forager of a sort. He gets healthy food scraps from the garden and from what we eat and he also catches his own raw meat in the form of rabbits, mice, ground squirrels. We also give him deer scraps, chicken bones and meat scraps from our own butchering.

We grow our own, butcher our own and harvest our own foods from the woods and coop. Yes, my chickens eat the evil GMO corn...it's been fermented to remove many of the negative aspects of the grains in their feed, to boost nutrition and gut flora. No bad looking chickens here. The fermented feed renders their eggs mild and nutty in flavor, as it also does their meat.

All in moderation, a good balance of the natural foods and the oh, so necessary corn grain and soy proteins found in most chicken and dog feeds. It works, the animals thrive, and I still have money in my pocket.

You are so correct, Bee, I got some rescue chickens from a hatchery and the first few eggs were pale and lemon colored. After a week or so on fermented feed they started turning bright orange. The chickens themselves are healthier and robust.

 

[bnjrob]

You are so correct, Bee, I got some rescue chickens from a hatchery and the first few eggs were pale and lemon colored. After a week or so on fermented feed they started turning bright orange. The chickens themselves are healthier and robust.

I can't even remember what storebought eggs look like or taste like. There are some folks that will occasionally buy some eggs off my husband at work and they just rave about how our eggs taste better and have better looking yolks. But I've gotten so used to our eggs that they don't seem "different" to me at all. Had some family over and they did want to know why my homemade mayonnaise was so yellow looking. LOL.

 

[finnfur]

I can't even remember what storebought eggs look like or taste like. There are some folks that will occasionally buy some eggs off my husband at work and they just rave about how our eggs taste better and have better looking yolks. But I've gotten so used to our eggs that they don't seem "different" to me at all. Had some family over and they did want to know why my homemade mayonnaise was so yellow looking. LOL.

This year my memory has been refreshed as we had a extreme heavy molt and was forced to buy 1 dozen Wally world eggs during the Hen strike- ate the last WW egg yesterday and when cooking
they don't even look good in the pan and are tasteless . We do some egg for wheat swap with a local farmer and his son was visiting durring the holiday last year . He had some of our
fresh free range eggs and told Dad he wanted to buy some . Dad explained you can't buy them they were a gift and how they were acquired. Son went back home and found a local
flock that he now buys his eggs from. People just don't realize the difference until they try them.