Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[Fentress]

As a commercial product, the hybrids are here to stay, that is what I would use if had to put my money on the line, the numbers just don't lie. But, for home consumption I think there could be a future for standard bred poultry. I got BR this year and we are at 33 weeks and still waiting for the first egg. Granted I think they may have good meat qualities, but something is askew here. I will try to speed these birds up and make them more productive, but so much damage has already been done. I need partners or maybe we need working groups to improve the productivity of our most beloved breeds.

 

[fowlman01]

It's interesting that there seems to be some kind of disconnect  between utility and appearance, when I don't think that it was originally intended to be that way. 

Looked on the APA page the other day, and there was a pdf about breeding to the Standard, and it says "Many show birds lay fewer eggs than we would like...".  But in the 2010 SOP on pg 28 it says "All breeds, whether bred chiefly for economic purposes or for beauty of color and form, must be healthy and vigorous and of good productive qualities to insure full propagation, as well as popular acceptance of the breed."

They must be healthy and vigorous and of GOOD PRODUCTIVE QUALITIES....says it right there in the SOP.  I don't know when that statement was first put into the SOP,  but somewhere along the line, things have gotten lost and the disconnect between pretty birds and useful birds occurred. 

the APA Standard Committee is putting the economic qualities of the breeds back into the Standard.

Walt

 

[bnjrob]

As a commercial product, the hybrids are here to stay, that is what I would use if had to put my money on the line, the numbers just don't lie. But, for home consumption I think there could be a future for standard bred poultry. I got BR this year and we are at 33 weeks and still waiting for the first egg. Granted I think they may have good meat qualities, but something is askew here. I will try to speed these birds up and make them more productive, but so much damage has already been done. I need partners or maybe we need working groups to improve the productivity of our most beloved breeds.

Yes, the hybrids are here and they aren't bad necessarily, but it is frustrating that there are not more people who are willing to look at other options. It really frustrates me when folks tell me that they are all about farming and becoming self sufficient, but when they find out what kind of work is involved with raising heritage poultry, or gardening, etc., they change their minds and decide that they want to get their food from a store because it's easier. Yeah, it's easier, right up until a hurricane comes up and cuts off electricity and the retail food supply chain and they have nothing to eat and they don't know how to raise and make their own food.

There is a video that has been going around from a Perdue farmer's place, showing the "realities" of commercial chicken keeping, and everybody is in a lather about it. But when push comes to shove, folks still want their cheap meat and many still prefer to buy at the store because it bothers their conscience to eat an animal that they knew on a more personal level.

33 weeks - that's a problem. We have a range in our flock from 20 weeks to about 30 weeks, depending on which bloodline they come from to start laying. What really drives me nuts is that our birds with the worst type lay better than the ones with better type. Which is why I can see how so many people firmly believe that production and SOP breeding can never be united.

I hear ya on "damage done". Having a partner or a group might help to get things done a little faster. Having birds from different strains may also help if you can't find partners. Haven't tried breeding our birds from different bloodlines, but am considering doing it, while still maintaining the original bloodlines, to see how well the offspring from a strain-cross turn out.

 

[bnjrob]

the APA Standard Committee is putting the economic qualities of the breeds back into the Standard.

Walt

Any idea of how that translates into how to show a judge what kind of a production a bird has?

 

[3riverschick]

Any idea of how that translates into how to show a judge what kind of a production a bird has?

Don't the birds speak for themselves by having the judges hold them and feel for production associated virtues
like smooth skin, fine scales on the legs and comb and wattles. Width of pelvic bones; breadth of back; length
of back and ; depth of chest; length of keel, stoutness of legs, symmetry of head points, etc.?
Best,
Karen

 

[Fred's Hens]

In my own personal view, a breeder that says they are breeding to the Standard and advertising them as such, a potential buyer for that breeders birds/eggs/meat have the right ask about egg laying, from point of lay right through number of eggs in pullet year and first hen year. The buyer should have the right to get straight answers as to the size and quality of those eggs as well. Breeding to the Standard must mean a transparency about this matters.

What do the cockerels weigh at 5 months or 6 months? What do the carcasses look like? If those time frames are appropriate to the breed, then if one claims to be breeding to the Standard then productive qualities such as these should be made known.

Just my own personal view, but since my primary focus is agriculture, which is assumed in this thread's title, then I believe these are honest considerations for the APA to address and for Standard bred breeders to take seriously.

"Perserving" breeds only has meaning to me if vigilant and faithful breeding actually produces birds that meet the Standard and that must include breed appropriate production capability as well as being a handsome, artfully beautiful specimen.

Just my personal view.

 

[bnjrob]

Don't the birds speak for themselves by having the judges hold them and feel for production associated virtues
like smooth skin, fine scales on the legs and comb and wattles. Width of pelvic bones; breadth of back; length
of back and ; depth of chest; length of keel, stoutness of legs, symmetry of head points, etc.?
Best,
Karen

Apparently they do not, since the APA has actually posted info on their website stating that show birds don't lay as well, and there are APA folks concerned that utility is going by the wayside.

 

[bnjrob]

In my own personal view, a breeder that says they are breeding to the Standard and advertising them as such, a potential buyer for that breeders birds/eggs/meat have the right ask about egg laying, from point of lay right through number of eggs in pullet year and first hen year. The buyer should have the right to get straight answers as to the size and quality of those eggs as well. Breeding to the Standard must mean a transparency about this matters.

What do the cockerels weigh at 5 months or 6 months? What do the carcasses look like? If those time frames are appropriate to the breed, then if one claims to be breeding to the Standard then productive qualities such as these should be made known.

Just my own personal view, but since my primary focus is agriculture, which is assumed in this thread's title, then I believe these are honest considerations for the APA to address and for Standard bred breeders to take seriously.

"Perserving" breeds only has meaning to me if vigilant and faithful breeding actually produces birds that meet the Standard and that must include breed appropriate production capability as well as being a handsome, artfully beautiful specimen.

Just my personal view.

Agree, but I'm not seeing it in practice with a lot of folks. It's like the production aspect has been lost because the general public is so far removed from where their food comes from and how to obtain that food.

It's like all the people selling "show quality" eggs and chicks. Just because the two parents won at a show, does not mean that their offspring are going to be "show quality". Heck, you can win at a show but if there isn't much competition, is your bird really "show quality"?

The emphasis on production is already in the SOP, but since there is apparently a problem with production even though the Standard says it is supposed to be there, then I'm just curious as to how things can be changed so that production becomes more of a focus. How do you get people to focus more on the production if there is no way to prove that production is good and present? I'm not sure there are any good answers.

 

[ronott1]

Agree, but I'm not seeing it in practice with a lot of folks. It's like the production aspect has been lost because the general public is so far removed from where their food comes from and how to obtain that food.

It's like all the people selling "show quality" eggs and chicks. Just because the two parents won at a show, does not mean that their offspring are going to be "show quality". Heck, you can win at a show but if there isn't much competition, is your bird really "show quality"?

The emphasis on production is already in the SOP, but since there is apparently a problem with production even though the Standard says it is supposed to be there, then I'm just curious as to how things can be changed so that production becomes more of a focus. How do you get people to focus more on the production if there is no way to prove that production is good and present? I'm not sure there are any good answers.

One of the best things for me is getting to eat the culls.

It would be possible to get production. @gjensen and @YellowHouseFarm Are both working on SOP and production.

Other countries have managed to keep both show quality and production up. Stressing the economic factors would help, along with some program by the APA to get some of their members out to Farmers markets touting the flavor of ranged SOP chickens.

 

[bnjrob]

One of the best things for me is getting to eat the culls.

It would be possible to get production. @gjensen and @YellowHouseFarm Are both working on SOP and production.

Other countries have managed to keep both show quality and production up. Stressing the economic factors would help, along with some program by the APA to get some of their members out to Farmers markets touting the flavor of ranged SOP chickens.

Getting the birds out to the farmer's markets would be great. Although there is such a problem with being allowed to do that - the red tape to be able to sell food like butchered chickens, is unreal in a lot of places. They frequently make it so that only large, well funded farms can afford all the fees and setup to be allowed to sell their farm products.