Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[mayble]

If you have never had chickens before, I would suggest you start with day-old hatchery chicks to learn basic chicken-keeping. If you enjoy being a flock keeper, you can gradually upgrade your flock to the breed of your choice as time and finances permit. My parents, siblings and I have regularly ordered hatchery chicks over the past 40 years with uniformly good results; they are consistently healthy, vigorous and reasonably priced. These large companies are professionals and generally far more reliable than the poultry equivalent of puppy mills, no matter how cutesy their blogs or Facebook pages. I would also suggest you build all your coop/run before you bring home your first chick, and build it as strong and predator-proof as if their lives depend on it, (because it does!) But first and foremost, be certain your city ordinances, neighborhood covenants, rental agreement and the like will ALL permit chickens on your property.
Best wishes,
Angela

A question on this point - I decided to start with hatchery chicks (from Ideal), partly because of the monetary investment and the anticipated learning curve but also because I have a few breeds I'm interested in and wanted to start with a few of each to get a feel for them.
My question is - how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament? Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different from breeder stock?
Unfortunately, it appears no one within a hundred miles keeps the breeds I'm looking for so the only way to get acquainted seems to be to just dive in.

 

[colburg]

A question on this point - I decided to start with hatchery chicks (from Ideal), partly because of the monetary investment and the anticipated learning curve but also because I have a few breeds I'm interested in and wanted to start with a few of each to get a feel for them.
My question is - how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament? Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different from breeder stock?
Unfortunately, it appears no one within a hundred miles keeps the breeds I'm looking for so the only way to get acquainted seems to be to just dive in.

We started with hatchery birds and a little over a year ago got some Standard Bred White Rocks. For our experience, the difference was night and day. I've read others on here, who know more than I, about why that is.

Hatcheries breed for egg laying and have crossed some leghorn into most lines. Leghorns are known for egg-laying and being temperamental. What they did wasn't the best thing for the breeds, but they're serving their customers what they want.

Hatcheries will also throw 10 cocks in a pen with 100 hens and the most aggressive will get the most ladies.

Breeders, on the other hand, will walk daily with their chickens and anything that attacks them either doesn't get bred, or goes into the stew pot. This isn't ALL breeders, but most that I know of.

Bottom line is, buying hatchery stock to judge breeder stock is like using humanity as a whole to judge an individual.

Like I said, this is my experience so take it with a grain of salt.

I would have paid double the $ for my chickens if they'd only been 100 miles away. The closest guy I found for my White Rocks was in Tucson, Az. I drug the wife and kids 500 miles to Tucson on a Friday, then 500 miles back on Saturday with 8 chickens in the rear of the suburban with windows cracked open the whole way to get our breed of choice. But it was worth it. We got some top-of-the-line Rocks that we just love.

Cheers,

 

[bnjrob]

A question on this point - I decided to start with hatchery chicks (from Ideal), partly because of the monetary investment and the anticipated learning curve but also because I have a few breeds I'm interested in and wanted to start with a few of each to get a feel for them.
My question is - how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament? Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different from breeder stock?
Unfortunately, it appears no one within a hundred miles keeps the breeds I'm looking for so the only way to get acquainted seems to be to just dive in.

Temperament varies between different flocks, different pens in the same flock, and different individuals. Someone may have snarky birds that they got from a hatchery, and ones that you get could be perfectly fine. It's all general and relative. Kind of like when people say that Rottweilers and Pit Bulls are all aggressive - yet how many people with those breeds have gentle dogs that wouldn't hurt a fly? There are too many variables in every situation to be able to set most things in stone when it comes to poultry of any kind. A LOT of chicken behavior is influenced by your husbandry methods.

As far as learning about New Hampshires by getting them from a hatchery or not....I'd have to wonder what kind of things you are thinking you will or need to "learn about keeping New Hampshires". Chickens are chickens no matter what breed or where you get them from. They all share the same basic traits. When you breed to the Standard, then you will find the breed differences, which are generally more about appearance characteristics and not other types of characteristics. The SOP isn't about their temperament. So what you would be learning if you were breeding to the SOP is how to choose the characteristics to make future generations of your flock look somewhat uniform and look as close to the breed standard as you can. And you can breed hatchery birds to the SOP too - so it isn't like there is some special thing about hatchery birds vs breeder birds other than breeder birds have a higher chance of being closer to looking like the breed standard than most hatchery birds, and hatchery birds are generally cheaper to buy.

Husbandry, and your breeding choices are what makes the differences between the birds you keep and your neighbor's birds - even if you both have the same breeds. Yes, you need to understand a breed's characteristics in that you can't ask a Leghorn to be the best bird for providing your family with meat - but really it's more about learning the characteristics of your own flock, regardless of breed, and learning how to provide the right husbandry to get the results that you want.

 

[gjensen]

A question on this point - I decided to start with hatchery chicks (from Ideal), partly because of the monetary investment and the anticipated learning curve but also because I have a few breeds I'm interested in and wanted to start with a few of each to get a feel for them.
My question is - how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament? Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different from breeder stock?
Unfortunately, it appears no one within a hundred miles keeps the breeds I'm looking for so the only way to get acquainted seems to be to just dive in.

Not very representative at all. Some more or less. You used NHs as an example. I have a hard time calling Ideal's New Hampshires, New Hampshires.

I cannot answer for Kim, but it seamed to me that she was emphasizing the fundamentals of raising poultry before getting too serious. I agree with that emphasis

If, however, you are interested in a particular breed, and getting to know a particular breed, you need good representatives of that breed. When trying to secure good stock, you may have to look farther than a 100 miles.

Visit a few shows. Join the APA and look through the year book. Ask around to see if anyone knows of a good source.

 

[Beekissed]

A question on this point - I decided to start with hatchery chicks (from Ideal), partly because of the monetary investment and the anticipated learning curve but also because I have a few breeds I'm interested in and wanted to start with a few of each to get a feel for them.
My question is - how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament? Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different from breeder stock?
Unfortunately, it appears no one within a hundred miles keeps the breeds I'm looking for so the only way to get acquainted seems to be to just dive in.

I've kept hatchery stock for most of my almost 40 yrs with chickens and have been very satisfied with many aspects of them~the foremost, of course, is their good laying~and have never noticed increased bad temperament in hatchery stock as a whole, even the roosters. I've kept leghorns, RIR, etc. breeds of roosters from hatchery stock and never had one single issue with their temperaments.

On the other hand, I've been somewhat spoiled about laying production and have found heirloom/heritage breed stock from breeder sources to be sadly deficient in laying and hardiness, though my experience with that end of chickens is still limited in breed choice and gene pool, so I cannot say if this is across the board on breeder stock. I have, however, read many posts on the breeder threads wherein those folks feel like 4-5 eggs per week in peak season is considered good laying for RIRs, PR, WR...and it's not. Not to me and not after having experienced hatchery stock.

So, if you want to have and stick with heirloom genetics from breeders, I suggest you bite the bullet and get your stock from them so you aren't too disappointed by their laying performance, their feed thrift and their possible lack of hardiness due to lack of breeding/culling for these aspects while just focusing on the breed standard. If you can find that rare breeder who focuses on the breed/flock as a whole and as a valuable asset beyond show stock and leans towards their true utility, then you may find one that has culled and bred for the full potential of the breed~hardiness, feed thrift, vigor, productivity, fecundity, foraging ability, survival instincts, mothering, good feathering, good grooming instincts, temperament.

 

[mayble]

I should probably clarify.
It isn't a matter of driving 110 miles to find birds - I've found none available in my state, and would have to have them shipped in from somewhere whether it be a hatchery or breeder.
So in deciding between Delawares or New Hampshires, Austrolorps or Orpingtons, my options are to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a few of each from breeders or spend fifty dollars on hatchery birds. I'm simply curious as to the ability to compare breeds based on hatchery birds.
My interest in showing birds or breeding show quality birds is less than zero. I'm looking for eggs and meat, not feathers, but I do want to stick to an established "heritage" breed rather than try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

...how representative do you think hatchery birds are as far as breed temperament?  Will I really learn about keeping New Hampshires, for example, or are hatchery birds very different?...

Temperament, like production, is strain-dependent, not breed-dependent. What I am trying to say politely is that you cannot count on anything being the same when you change strains. However, if you are fairly happy with the hatchery birds you have acquired, you can breed your hens to a "breeder" cockerel and upgrade your flock that way. WARNING! When you finally see good quality birds, whether at a show, at a farm or online, you might be gobsmacked by the differences.

Basic chicken husbandry is the same skill set, regardless of the breed or source of your flock.
Best wishes,
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

[quote name="CodyP" url="/t/447684/farming-and-homesteading-heritage-poultry/2600#post_14923958
...I'm REALLY wanting the best chicks..

Are you speaking from a money saving standpoint or saying I might not be able to take care of them vs. hatchery raised chicks? I figured the better bred birds would be easier to take care of and more hardy leading to less disease and problems?
[/quote]

There is no objective best chicken. What makes a strain of chickens the subjective best is whether they have been bred to achieve your goals. Only you can decide what those are.

Basic chicken husbandry skills are the same for hatchery and standard-bred birds. The hatchery chicks will be just as hardy/healthy/vigorous/easy-care as standard-bred chicks, but will cost one-half to one-quarter the price. Chicks from a backyard breeder may not be any of the qualities desired, will cost as much as good chicks, and may not be healthy or vigorous at all.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

There is a tendency to lump all strains in one basket, which is a narrow view. Because it is true for some, does not make it true for all. An experience or two, or even three, does not represent all of the variety that is out there.

If someone wants good stock (they are the ones that define what good is, not anyone else), you have to do your homework. It will require some effort to secure those birds. If they are not worth the effort to secure them, then they are not important enough to be had.

If all someone wants is some colorful layers, then the conversation is mute, and the hatcheries have them a dime for a dozen. Pay online, and they are shipped to you in short order. Easy, quick, convenient, and though they are rarely representative of the breed, they will likely be good layers, and healthy stock. If you want the New Hampshires, and Barred Rocks to have any meat on their bones, then you will be disappointed. If you want the Minorca to look like Minorca then well . . . . you get the point.

If someone is interested in a particular breed, and they cannot be had in a way that is satisfactory to the one interested, roll up your sleeves and get them there. If it is not that important to someone, they should get something else (or nothing at all), and move on. They did not have enough interest in the breed to do the work to get them where "they think" they should be. They are not the ambassadors that the breed needs.

If all someone wants is eggs and flesh, then the hatcheries have the best meat birds the world has ever known. They have the best layers that the world has ever known. ISA Browns, and Cornish X are some of the cheapest birds out there. There are millions of them world wide. If economy is a concern, go to Wal Mart and buy it out of the meat department and skip all of the rest.

It is not true to say that there are not some decent birds out there that are productive, hardy, and have good size. I can think of quite a few off of the top of my head. I have some on my yard. They have to be looked for, and asked around about to find them. There are not conveniently available. That is just the way it is.

 

[bnjrob]

Thank you for the in-depth reply,

I have checked the city ordinances and we're in such a rural area they allow everything from mules to cattle to bees with no restrictions other than not to be loud and to keep them fenced in. I'm good on that front.. and also, I'll definitely have the coops built before any purchases are made. I just like planning and getting all of my bases covered beforehand. I don't like the idea of getting a coop built and THEN just starting to look around for chicks.. but, I also won't be eating these birds.. they'll be pampered from most peoples perspectives and live LONG lives without being on the dinner table which is why I was wanting to purchase from the best bloodlines from the get go.. I'll still look into different hatcheries, I've heard cackles was the best, but I'm REALLY wanting the best chicks..

Are you speaking from a money saving standpoint or saying I might not be able to take care of them vs. hatchery raised chicks? I figured the better bred birds would be easier to take care of and more hardy leading to less disease and problems?

If you have not kept chickens before, then it is usually advised to start with hatchery stock to save money. First time chicken keepers tend to inadvertently kill their chickens because of their inexperience in knowing how to care for chickens - which means you will waste money if you buy the best bird you can find and then have a lot of deaths the first year or so of chicken keeping.

Your comments on pampering your chickens concerns me. I've seen too many times that the pampered chickens are generally the chickens that are not hardy, they become sick and injured quite easily because they were treated like human babies rather than what they are - chickens. This website is full of people who pamper their chickens. And it is also full of people who literally love their chickens to death by making them unable to acclimate and tolerate a variety of temperatures, weather, and living situations. They wind up breeding sickly chickens because they love them so much and are unable to face the realities of chicken keeping and making hard decisions. They run to the feed store and buy antibiotics for their chickens because their chicken doesn't want to eat and they think that antibiotics will magically cure their favorite hen.

These are not dogs and cats. You have to do different things with chickens to keep them healthy, compared to what you would do with your dog. There is a difference between treating your chickens well so that they thrive, and pampering them so much that you enable them to become unable to adapt to minor stressors that cause them to do poorly.

I'm curious as to how you are planning on breeding your birds and why you think you need the best chickens if you do not plan on eating your birds and you plan on pampering them and keeping them for ever. This really is incongruous and makes me think that you have been reading the romanticized chicken keeping articles in magazines and you don't have a real handle on what it is to raise chickens - particularly in a farming/homesteading situation. And if you aren't looking to seriously breed for some sort of production or to the SOP, then some hatchery layers will likely suit you just fine. Otherwise, there are some things you may need to think about, because your post sent up some big red flags to me.

How are you going to breed chickens to keep your flock perpetuated - and perpetuated only by the birds with the best characteristics, while having enough space and money to feed and house chickens over the years as they multiply?

What are you going to do with the hens that stop laying?

What are you going to do with all the roosters that you hatch over the years?

Each hatch is usually about a 50/50 split of males and females, and that is a whole lot of roosters you're going to have around if you aren't planning on eating them.

Are you going to be able to sell or give birds to someone else, knowing that they most likely will be someone's dinner?

Do you have any idea of how many people out there don't want to eat Mr. Roo, but they don't want anyone else to eat him either?

There are not enough *good homes* for cats and dogs, and there are a lot more unwanted roosters out there that are not going to be able to find a *good home* than there are cats and dogs dying at the pound every day.

Do you understand what happens when you have too many roosters?

Do you understand that when you put too many roosters into a flock that you can have a lot of cock fights occur and they may even fight to the death or so seriously injure each other that they die or need to be euthanized?

Chickens are attracted to new and different things in their environment. And like a baby that sticks things in its mouth to learn about things, chickens peck at things they are trying to learn about. So they peck a spot of blood on another chicken. And then another chicken pecks at the blood spot. And that causes someone's comb to bleed. And so they peck more at the blood. Until they wind up pecking the chicken to death. They don't mean to do it, but it happens.

We had that happen in one of our pens during the first year of chicken keeping. It took just a couple of hours from the time I had last seen them, until I went back out and found they had pecked all the flesh off the chicken's head, exposed the bone, and had a hole started into the skull itself. We had to kill that chicken immediately. It was suffering and euthanizing it was the right thing to do.

What if that happens to you - can you euthanize that bird to keep it from suffering? What if your birds get attacked and seriously injured by a predator? If need be, can you euthanize that bird to keep it from suffering any longer after a dog has taken a few chomps out of it?

And if you want the *best* birds that you can find, I am assuming that you are wanting to breed them for the best traits. Which means you will have to hatch a LOT of birds over the years in order to have a good selection of birds to choose the best traits from for continued breeding. What are you going to do with all the birds that don't make the cut for being breeders?

I have seen what happens when people with idealistic, romantic dreams of having farm chickens wind up in trouble because they want to have their *ladies* and their *roos*, and keep them as if they were royalty and wait on them hand and foot, and refuse to eat their chickens or allow anyone else to eat their chickens either. It isn't pretty. And it's the chickens that suffer - they wind up with cramped living quarters, sickly sometimes because it is too cramped. When room runs out in the pampered pen, those pampered chickens are let loose to free range - but they don't know how to alert to a predator because they have always been safe in their chicken mansions and they wind up being killed, and sometimes tortured by the predator for fun. Hens wind up with torn up and bleeding backs and combs from too many roosters trying to mate them. Sanitation in the chicken area often goes down because there are too many to reasonably care for.

While I understand where you are at in your thinking - I also know the reality of things and right now, I would recommend that you do a lot more learning and thinking about some of these things before you even continue to consider getting chickens.

There is a reason that so many chicks, ducks, and rabbits are abandoned at the pound every year after Easter - because these animals have different needs and people think they are cute but are not ready for the reality of keeping them.

With the backyard chicken craze - everybody wants a chicken that makes them breakfast, but they wind up with a lot of heartache when they are unprepared for what to do when their hen turns out to be a *roo*, or when they have too many *roos* or just plain to many chickens. After a few years when their original hens stop laying, they want more hens, so they can have eggs, but they don't have the room because they refuse to allow the old hens to be butchered. So they think that somebody will want them, maybe if they just dump the old hens at a rescue group or the animal shelter, then they can get new hens - they think that there is going to be a home waiting for their unwanted birds, a home that will put a diaper on their birds and watch tv with them....that's not the case. A couple of weeks ago I had someone unhappy that no one wanted their *roo* - and of course they didn't want the bird to be eaten. When I told them that they should have had a plan in place before they got chickens, they said that their plan was that the roosters would go to live with their parents and a friend. Problem was, they had just kept on getting/hatching chickens without thinking and now their family and friends' homes were full and they couldn't take any more roosters. So the person was stuck with a rooster they couldn't have where they lived, and nowhere to take it since they were opposed to allowing someone else to kill and eat the bird. Not a very good plan to count on someone else to take the chickens you don't want or can no longer keep if you are opposed to other people eating the birds you raised.

If you can't euthanize your chickens when you need to, then you need to have a plan to have an avian vet willing to see chickens when you have a problem - BEFORE you have a problem. An emergency is not the time to be searching for help.

If you can't butcher your own chickens, then you need to be willing to sell your chickens to someone, even if they are going to eat the birds - otherwise you will end up with too many birds and wind up very unhappy. Not to mention the potential for a lot of distressed birds.

Right now, the plan you have for your chickens is not sustainable for very long.