Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[BantyChooks]

Genetics of the Fowl can be viewed online, but I like to have the actual book. There is a paperback reprint, but I like hardback, and it costs about as much as a first edition anyway. I have good luck buying books on eBay.

Do you think it would be printable, or would the providers frown on that? I quite prefer actual copies as well but my wallet prefers virtual.

 

[gojira]

Do you think it would be printable, or would the providers frown on that? I quite prefer actual copies as well but my wallet prefers virtual.

It is in .pdf format, so I assume it is ok to print it. I can relate.

 

[BantyChooks]

It is in .pdf format, so I assume it is ok to print it. I can relate.

I'll go do some hunting, then. Thank you for that tip off; I had done a cursory search but figured it would probably follow the pattern of all the other books I tried to find free or cheap online and not exist.

 

[gojira]

I'll go do some hunting, then. Thank you for that tip off; I had done a cursory search but figured it would probably follow the pattern of all the other books I tried to find free or cheap online and not exist.

Here is a link to Genetics of the Fowl:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006160314;view=1up;seq=9;skin=mobile

You mentioned reading about the partridge pattern. One book that might help is The Mating and Breeding of Poultry by Lamon and Slocum:

https://archive.org/details/matingbreedingof00lamo

It is available as a reprint for I think under $15. Look for

Another book that might help is The Plymouth Rock Standard and Breed Book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t9p27f52d;view=1up;seq=5;skin=mobile

Look for the section on Partridge Plymouth Rocks.

 

[BantyChooks]

Here is a link to Genetics of the Fowl:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006160314;view=1up;seq=9;skin=mobile

You mentioned reading about the partridge pattern. One book that might help is The Mating and Breeding of Poultry by Lamon and Slocum:

https://archive.org/details/matingbreedingof00lamo

It is available as a reprint for I think under $15. Look for

Another book that might help is The Plymouth Rock Standard and Breed Book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t9p27f52d;view=1up;seq=5;skin=mobile

Look for the section on Partridge Plymouth Rocks.

Thank you so much! I think I have The Mating and Breeding of Poultry printed out, but not fully read yet. I bookmarked those links and I will add them to my reading list. I appreciate it.

 

[YdogsflY]

So I have pondered on this today while feeding the farm animals.

Some may not care about letting their lines go with them. Yet there are people ready to take up the challenge in an honest way. Lines are lines because everyone has a different eye/vison. So while somebody will do their best to keep them going, their will be changes over time. So maybe some time should be spent on finding a good steward instead of letting them go. I'm not advocating to letting the genetics go to anyone who comes along, but letting the old breeds/lines die just seems wasteful.

I do believe I understand where you're coming from. Just not sure what your idea of good fowl is. I saw some pics of a New Hampshire cock that won best American at the Bluebonnet classic in Texas. I would not want that bird in my breeding pen. And I'll leave it at that.

The Private apa group seems pretty good to me though. Some big name breeders with some nice looking fowl are pretty active there.

There is a very large problem today when it comes to Hatchers and Colors vs actual breeders of fowl. But not everyone coming up in this culture is falling into this trap. When the older folks with the know how go hide away, it only leaves so many paths for people to go. Some choose the hard path, most go the easy route. Would be nice to reverse that, but it's not gonna help without educating, explaining, and showing the masses why the hard route is better.

Found a pic of that cock.

I wouldn't want that one in my pens either. Funny it placed or even won anything.

I can understand both sides of the issue here with Rye and Gojira.

Rye (Don't mean to put words in his mouth) is coming from a position of reality. The APA is here, and the Standards are set by them. Whether right or wrong, that is the system we have. With that system there are cheaters, favorites, clicks, mistakes, and all around butt holes. But he was dragged into this conversation, as originally he was talking about another post that was really good, and most likely trying to go in that direction.

Gojira, Yes, blood is important to a point. Game Fowl lines, old lines like Mohawk, Voter, etc are very important. Line breeding is critical keeping these lines alive and going. I don't think Rye was disputing that aspect as that was part of what he was saying from the start. Outside of the old lines it's an alphabet soup of genes and lines. Within that Alphabet soup lies 90% of poultry. Pushing away those wanting to learn isn't going to help save that 10% that actually matters.

In my point of view (which doesn't mean squat) sometimes a deep breath and a tender ear can go much farther than a brick wall.

That's my 2 cents, do with it as you will.

Nice reading/book discussion. I will enjoy reading some of the titles. Thank you.

 

[gojira]

I wouldn't want that one in my pens either. Funny it placed or even won anything.

I can understand both sides of the issue here with Rye and Gojira.

Rye (Don't mean to put words in his mouth) is coming from a position of reality. The APA is here, and the Standards are set by them. Whether right or wrong, that is the system we have. With that system there are cheaters, favorites, clicks, mistakes, and all around butt holes. But he was dragged into this conversation, as originally he was talking about another post that was really good, and most likely trying to go in that direction.

Gojira, Yes, blood is important to a point. Game Fowl lines, old lines like Mohawk, Voter, etc are very important. Line breeding is critical keeping these lines alive and going. I don't think Rye was disputing that aspect as that was part of what he was saying from the start. Outside of the old lines it's an alphabet soup of genes and lines. Within that Alphabet soup lies 90% of poultry. Pushing away those wanting to learn isn't going to help save that 10% that actually matters.

In my point of view (which doesn't mean squat) sometimes a deep breath and a tender ear can go much farther than a brick wall.

That's my 2 cents, do with it as you will.

Nice reading/book discussion. I will enjoy reading some of the titles. Thank you.

Rye is coming from a position of fairy tales. Reality is much different. Just because an organization exist does not mean they should mislead people, or discourage people from learning or knowing the truth. Rye was not dragged into a conversation, Rye started the conversation. Rye was talking about things that were misleading, and basically defending fairy tales. Rye was saying peole with knowledge and experience should turn things over to people with no knowledge or experience, and no desire to get any.

Mohawk is a relatively new line, and was not around long. Rye was saying a breed was a look, not genetic. That is something the APA came up with. The ones being pushed away are people with knowledge and experience. People with knowledge are being told not to use it. That makes sense.

 

[bnjrob]

I am not talking about public pages, but rather private pages for breed clubs or associations.

There are two APA groups on FB, one is for dues-paying APA members and the other is for anyone interested in the APA. Both groups are having a ton of problems with newbies, and even non-members throwing hissy fits when someone tells them their precious Fluffy Butt isn't the bees knees, and when the APA won't cater to their demands. It has been a nightmare lately and many have gotten sick of the online snowflakes even in the "closed" FB groups.

 

[gojira]

I am not a member of the APA, but I was on the non-member facebook page, and most people seemed narrow in their thinking. It was like people would not think for themselves. They can only say what the APA says they should say. I do feel new people should be helped, given direction, etc. But, I also think they should be given factual information. I think historical ideas, beliefs, theories, etc. should be stated as such, not as facts. I don't think people should be attacked for saying historical ideas are just that, and trying to help others learn so they can advance their programs. A lot of people go in circles, not making much progress, because they are not being given factual information. I think the APA feels they need to justify the standard, and don't want people to know the standards are based on opinions on aesthetics. The standard, at leadt for the most part, has nothing to do with the function or productivity of poultry. The APA knows how I feel, but the majority of the "educational articles" on the APA website are historical ideas, or just fluff. I think it is fine for people to learn history, and what people thought about certain characteristics, and why, but I think people should be taught reality also. I have a fairly large collection of historical poultry books, from the late 1800s to present, but I know how far we have come since those days. And if I ever say my birds ate the bees knees, I have lost it. I am harder on my birds than anyone else.

 

[3riverschick]

[QUOTE="BantyChooks, post: 19544652, member: 371240"

The first one off the top of my head is Creative Poultry Breeding by W.C. Carefoot, which I am currently trying to get my hands on.
Karen:
Just buy it. 44.00 is a steal.
________

interested in further research on traits associated with higher vigour and egg production (such as head shape, slant of back, pelvic width, etcetera)
Karen:
Read bob blosl's website.
_______'
as well as information on stippled and pencilled varieties
Karen:
Go to Hathitrust Digital Library and look up " breeding laws" by Card. He explains the laws regarding pencilling and stippling.
______
such as more data behind the thoughts that shafting in the female body is what shows up in males as shafting in the sex feathers, or male traits that are indicative of potential to throw better pencilled daughters. That is, without turning the operation to one of double mating. Balance between the sexes is something that's just going to be a decades long learning experience for me with no way around it.
________
The current slice of information that I am chasing for verification (or debunking) is the assertion that breeding in tighter feathers is connected to an increase in egg production.
Karen:
Check out Blosl's site. I discussed this with Bob. Wanted to increase egg production in my Sussex. Bob explained how he had done this in his RIR. Had bred his females so they laid 25 more eggs a year. Concurrent with the increase in egg production, his females became closer feathered.
_________

I'd also like to know if vaulted skulls cause stupidity via brain malformation in crested breeds or if they can be bred to be slightly more intelligent,
Karen:
I have no Science on this in poultry. However a scientific study in collie dogs proved that narrowing of the skull did not affect intelligence.
_______'

but that's probably more of a wandering question I'd be best off trying to find the answer to in my own breeding pens. I gather that most don't really care if they have chickens less intelligent than the average office stapler or not.

Genetics is one of the next topics I will be exploring, and when I do, the first specifics I want to find out about are the aforementioned pencilled and stippled varieties.

Partridge Chanteclers are my main interest and focus with Silver Ameraucanas on the side. I also have a small group of White Leghorn hens which I have used to test for myself some of the points in the old egg production literature, and I found that the best layers did indeed match those descriptions given. It's quite a fascinating area to learn in.

Chantecler Fanciers International is a well run breed club (in my opinion) with more informative articles and images than it does show reports. That is the extent of my experience with clubs so I cannot compare to other places from more than just what I hear others say. I will be joining one of the Ameraucana clubs shortly in the hopes it will be as useful to me as CFI has been. If not, well, that was 10 bucks of a learning experience. Even if I, in the end, decide that the APA is right for whatever reason, I still don't think sticking one's head into the sand in terms of opposing literature is a good idea either, eh? Thank you.[/QUOTE]
__________
Best regards,
Karen
BTW,
Super journal advice from Gojira in post 3291.
Love those journals. Lots of nuggets of knowledge in them.