Feeding for Darker Yolks

[U_Stormcrow]

What’s wrong with too much fat? Our winters are usually -10 to -20 and I don’t want them to drop too much weight.

"Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome'

Also

Here

and here

and easily several dozen other reasonably reliable sources I could quickly link. The important thing to remember is that we (and bears, seals, and whales, and other cold adapted mammals tend to put on layers of fat subcutaneously, intramuscularly, and (for many of us) around the belly in larger-still subcutaneous pockets. Chickens, on the other hand, do NOT have the genetics to deposit fat that way. They deposit almost none intramuscularly. They deposit very little subcutaneously (along the keel, the inside of the thighs, around the tail. Almost all of the fat a chicken deposits either fills the organ cavity or the organs themselves - like the liver until it fails. Up until that point, it puts pressure on the heart and lungs, reduces circulation, and contributes to reproductive tract problems.

Failing to account for fat content is probably the number one mistake of people offering treats or "make at home" feed recipes. Fat content for chicken feeds should be around 3.5%+/-. About 1% higher for waterfowl. CornishX??? Up to 7-8 percent in the final feed stages, but keep in mind that CX are NOT raised with an eye towards longevity...

 

[LizzzyJo]

Mine also don’t prefer salads, but if I chop up the veggies into bits they will eat them. I mince up kale from the garden and the eggs are nice and dark. I would do red pepper flakes but I prefer to not buy additional foods besides their feed and I don’t grow red pepper. I should though!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Shrimp shells work well as treats - but BE MINDFUL of the salt content. I don't boil mine in salted water (or old bay - which is mostly various salts), so the shells are fine from "peel and eat" night.

 

[GuloGal]

Try a higher protein feed if you don't want them to lose weight. Fat doesn't gather as much on the outside of a bird like it does us, it gathers around the heart and liver and causes organ failure.
Carbs and fat won't help them keep warm at all, it's a wives tale.

This is not true. I'm a biologist, birds are omnivores and metabolize fat and carbs just fine, and they absolutely do develop subcutaneous fat. Suet and lard are common winter bird feeds for this exact reason. Calories are calories. Protein beyond their daily needs actually won't contribute much to weight retention in mature birds.

Organ failure from fat only occurs in birds if they are obese, which can happen from any diet, and almost never occurs in birds that aren't confined. Mine are not overweight, and free range, but also burning a lot of calories in the cold.

 

[Perris]

"Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome'

Also

Here

and here

and easily several dozen other reasonably reliable sources I could quickly link. The important thing to remember is that we (and bears, seals, and whales, and other cold adapted mammals tend to put on layers of fat subcutaneously, intramuscularly, and (for many of us) around the belly in larger-still subcutaneous pockets. Chickens, on the other hand, do NOT have the genetics to deposit fat that way. They deposit almost none intramuscularly. They deposit very little subcutaneously (along the keel, the inside of the thighs, around the tail. Almost all of the fat a chicken deposits either fills the organ cavity or the organs themselves - like the liver until it fails. Up until that point, it puts pressure on the heart and lungs, reduces circulation, and contributes to reproductive tract problems.

Failing to account for fat content is probably the number one mistake of people offering treats or "make at home" feed recipes. Fat content for chicken feeds should be around 3.5%+/-. About 1% higher for waterfowl. CornishX??? Up to 7-8 percent in the final feed stages, but keep in mind that CX are NOT raised with an eye towards longevity...

“Fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome (flhs) in poultry is associated with high carb, low-fat, selenium-deficient diets given ad lib.” Macwhirter Avian Medicine chapter 31 (p.851)
https://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/avian-medicine/

 

[nuthatched]

This is not true. I'm a biologist, birds are omnivores and metabolize fat and carbs just fine, and they absolutely do develop subcutaneous fat. Suet and lard are common winter bird feeds for this exact reason. Calories are calories. Protein beyond their daily needs actually won't contribute much to weight retention in mature birds.

Organ failure from fat only occurs in birds if they are obese, which can happen from any diet, and almost never occurs in birds that aren't confined. Mine are not overweight, and free range, but also burning a lot of calories in the cold.

I see your point and it sounds reasonable but I'd like to see your studies on this.
Domestic Poultry and Passerine birds are built a bit differently, chickens have more fast twitch musculature for scratching, wandering, and quick getaways from predators. Passerine birds (the birds we put suet cakes out for) have more Slow twitch musculature (aka dark meat) since they're always flying around. White meat (slow twitch) is known for its low-fat content, with pockets of intermuscular fat. Since white meat doesn't readily store fat, it gathers in the fat pockets, subcutaneously along the keel bone or internally. Areas that won't get in the way when fleeing for their lives.
I didn't say chickens didn't gather subcutaneous or intermuscular fat, I said they don't do it as we do. They actually gather very little subcutaneously, and that happens after it's stored internally. If it's visible, there's a worse problem internally.
Protein is essential for the health of chickens, it's needed for tissue, feathers, hormones, eggs, and skin, that's why higher protein feeds are often called "conditioning feeds", and it's also why athletes eat a diet that tends to be a bit heavier on the protein side.
Saying calories are calories isn't scientifically or nutritionally sound, there's a difference between eating the same calorie load in say, oreos and eating it in a balanced meal.
Carbs, sugar, and healthy fats are necessary for health (and criminally delicious) but too much can cause serious health issues, for both our bodies and chicken bodies.
Even excessive subcutaneous fat can cause laying issues like egg binding.
Generally, you want to stay under a 5% fat diet for domestic chickens (average feed has 3ish %). If the birds are excessively active, if it's winter and cold, a bit more fat won't hurt but too much will cause issues and early deaths.
just like in us.

 

[Krugerrand]

"Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome'

Also

Here

and here

and easily several dozen other reasonably reliable sources I could quickly link. The important thing to remember is that we (and bears, seals, and whales, and other cold adapted mammals tend to put on layers of fat subcutaneously, intramuscularly, and (for many of us) around the belly in larger-still subcutaneous pockets. Chickens, on the other hand, do NOT have the genetics to deposit fat that way. They deposit almost none intramuscularly. They deposit very little subcutaneously (along the keel, the inside of the thighs, around the tail. Almost all of the fat a chicken deposits either fills the organ cavity or the organs themselves - like the liver until it fails. Up until that point, it puts pressure on the heart and lungs, reduces circulation, and contributes to reproductive tract problems.

Failing to account for fat content is probably the number one mistake of people offering treats or "make at home" feed recipes. Fat content for chicken feeds should be around 3.5%+/-. About 1% higher for waterfowl. CornishX??? Up to 7-8 percent in the final feed stages, but keep in mind that CX are NOT raised with an eye towards longevity...

Are you advocating for limiting fat in the diet? or control levels of fat in the bird?

I'm trying to work my way through these links. I'm not seeing suggestions to reduce fat consumption to protect from FLHS.

I'm seeing the opposite:

Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial.

As a general rule for people, I subscribe to the theory of 'eating fat does not directly lead to fat build up - but eating sugars (more or less) does.' But, I really have done virtual zero research on chicken nutrition.

thanks!

 

[Ridgeback825]

We grow marigolds for ours and they love them. If you pinch the base of the bloom off, it seperates the pedals with the seeds and the chicken's gobble them up. It's supposed to help with yokes and is one part of our variety they get. Easy and cheap to grow tons and the kids love the interaction, as do the chickens!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Are you advocating for limiting fat in the diet? or control levels of fat in the bird?

I'm trying to work my way through these links. I'm not seeing suggestions to reduce fat consumption to protect from FLHS.

I'm seeing the opposite:


As a general rule for people, I subscribe to the theory of 'eating fat does not directly lead to fat build up - but eating sugars (more or less) does.' But, I really have done virtual zero research on chicken nutrition.

thanks!

Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic has a bunch of potentially contributing causes, though based on the studies I've read, in a typical chicken diet, one is more likely to hit the high fat (or the high fat + high carb) levels associated with increased incidence of the sndrome before one hits the high protein levels some claim causes or contributes to fatty liver. Most people throw corn - or corn-based scratch, not cat food now at $2/lb for the dry stuff. No one I know is offering free choice fish meal or setting out piles of solvent extracted high protein soy meal...
Selenium is... interesting. Probably acts as a buffer, rather than a direct cause (i.e. Vitamin C deficiency results in rickets. Selenium deficiency results in a bunch of things, fatty liver generally isn't one of them. High Carbs, High Fat, and or High protein together with low Selenium is recipe for more frequent fatty liver than those diets with adequate seleniium level) but in any event, most people don't know the selenium content of their feed, and its not something easily adjusted by the typical BYCer.

Which leads back to your initial question - and its a good one. **IF** we were building a feed from scratch, and we had settled on a particular feed management (low nutrient, low energy - high nutrient high energy - low nutrient high energy - high nutrient low enegry) style, I'd give real thought to replacing carbs with fat to hit the desired mKE targets - particularly if I was building a feed that wasn't dependent on corn as a main ingredient.

But for the majority of people reading these threads, they aren't building feed from scratch (and shouldn't try it). The few with the knowledge don't need my posts. What the majority of people are doing is adding "stuff" to their existing feed. and since their existing feed generally doesn't list carbs, generally doesn't list mKE/kg (or similar measure of total energy per unit weight), and often has corn or unknown grain products as its first ingredient, the information just isn't there to work with. Even then, you can't just take carbs "out" of an existing feed to replace with fat on a 1:1 basis in terms of unit energy.

So however sound the theory, its not a practical approach for those dealing with a feed that's already been made.

And THAT is why I recommend the 3.5% fat target +/- for chickens, 1% higher for waterfowl, Cx are a special case.

 

[Krugerrand]

Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic has a bunch of potentially contributing causes, though based on the studies I've read, in a typical chicken diet, one is more likely to hit the high fat (or the high fat + high carb) levels associated with increased incidence of the sndrome before one hits the high protein levels some claim causes or contributes to fatty liver. Most people throw corn - or corn-based scratch, not cat food now at $2/lb for the dry stuff. No one I know is offering free choice fish meal or setting out piles of solvent extracted high protein soy meal...
Selenium is... interesting. Probably acts as a buffer, rather than a direct cause (i.e. Vitamin C deficiency results in rickets. Selenium deficiency results in a bunch of things, fatty liver generally isn't one of them. High Carbs, High Fat, and or High protein together with low Selenium is recipe for more frequent fatty liver than those diets with adequate seleniium level) but in any event, most people don't know the selenium content of their feed, and its not something easily adjusted by the typical BYCer.

Which leads back to your initial question - and its a good one. **IF** we were building a feed from scratch, and we had settled on a particular feed management (low nutrient, low energy - high nutrient high energy - low nutrient high energy - high nutrient low enegry) style, I'd give real thought to replacing carbs with fat to hit the desired mKE targets - particularly if I was building a feed that wasn't dependent on corn as a main ingredient.

But for the majority of people reading these threads, they aren't building feed from scratch (and shouldn't try it). The few with the knowledge don't need my posts. What the majority of people are doing is adding "stuff" to their existing feed. and since their existing feed generally doesn't list carbs, generally doesn't list mKE/kg (or similar measure of total energy per unit weight), and often has corn or unknown grain products as its first ingredient, the information just isn't there to work with. Even then, you can't just take carbs "out" of an existing feed to replace with fat on a 1:1 basis in terms of unit energy.

So however sound the theory, its not a practical approach for those dealing with a feed that's already been made.

And THAT is why I recommend the 3.5% fat target +/- for chickens, 1% higher for waterfowl, Cx are a special case.

Thank you for the detailed response!