Feeding with mealworms as the only protein source

[Shadrach]

Their area is a little under 1/2 an acre, with about 20% of that as grass and weeds, and the rest woods. I'd love to figure out how to plant more forage in there; I put down some oats once but they ate it before it sprouted, no surprise there

There is absolutely no way you can adequately feed 38 chickens from forage and mealworms on half an acre of land.

 

[Canina]

You can download a book of the latest and greatest poultry science from 1921 here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/poultry-for-the-farm-and-home.1443907/

The thing that struck me the most was that this advice (which includes diet formulas), was aimed at getting a profitable 100 eggs per hen per year -- from LEGHORNS!

The worst layer in my flock, the Brahma in my avatar, did better than that.



Only if you consider hens that lay more than 2 eggs a week to be a problem.



A good solution in your climate, but untenable in most areas.

To be fair, I can understand the opinion that we've become a bit lazy using bagged feed for convenience when most commercial pet and livestock foods are often full of fillers and slightly questionable ingredients they shouldn't really have in them (you have to be freaking nutritionist and read all the fine print when looking at these labels sometimes). I can also understand the view that as much as we're more commercially successful now, SHOULD we be pushing dairy cows to be producing such high volumes of milk, SHOULD we be encouraging chickens to lay higher volumes of eggs.

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/hsus-report-breeding-egg-welfiss.pdf

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/how-the-dairy-industry-has-unnaturally-altered-the-life-of-cows/#:~:text=In order to ensure the,cows suffer from this ailment.

Whilst I'm not saying we should all go back to just stalking wild junglefowl in the hope that they might occasionally drop an egg in a bush every other Tuesday (works for my family though), but we have sacrificed some things for the sake of economic growth whilst in many cases, stunting, deforming or artificially accelerating the growth of livestock; we have all kinds of unnatural specimens now. Look at modern broiler chickens. They grow fast and produce a lot of meat but it's not good for them and not good for us. I'm saying this as someone who has been involved in farming for 16 years, never been far beyond the poverty line, lived in developing countries with unreliable running water/electricity let alone financial opportunities and have just seen a much beloved farm I used to work on shut down permanently...

I don't think all pellets are evil and the people that formulate them have the balance down to a tee (even if a lot of quail food is suspiciously low protein still) but I can understand wanting to supplement that with natural protein sources. Just ones that are't so high in fat. Or sugars. I guess gamebirds want the keto diet? So do dogs and cats but we still keep putting cornstarch and shit in pet food meant for obligate carnivores and everyone is diabetic or on the way these days... Might be the answer or all of us.

NOTE: Then again since we've tailored this the feed to these selectively bred birds designed for maximum production, trying to feed them a more 'traditional diet' would probably be a detriment to them. Maybe heritage breeds or junglefowl crosses would be better on that sort of diet.

 

[3KillerBs]

Look at modern broiler chickens. They grow fast and produce a lot of meat but it's not good for them and not good for us.

I beg to differ.

Providing the world with the least expensive, most abundant source of high quality protein ever known in human history is a very, very good thing.

When I was feeding a family of 6, including growing teens, on a budget of $100 per person per month -- which is less than if we'd been getting Food Stamps -- I was GLAD to be able to buy 10# bags of chicken leg quarters for $.50/lb and cheap eggs in boxes of 60 for 1/3 the price per dozen.

It's not merely a "First World Problem" to worry about maybe being too good at producing food, it's a first world wealthy elite problem.

 

[Canina]

I beg to differ.

Providing the world with the least expensive, most abundant source of high quality protein is a very, very good thing.

When I was feeding a family of 6, including growing teens, on a budget of $100 per person per month -- which is less than if we'd been getting Food Stamps -- I was GLAD to be able to buy 10# bags of chicken leg quarters for $.50/lb and cheap eggs in boxes of 60 for 1/3 the price per dozen.

It's not merely a "First World Problem" to worry about maybe being too good at producing food, it's a first world wealthy elite problem.

The birds are unhealthy IMO. Meat has always been a luxury and never something you should expect to eat every day. We could all do with eating less and being more efficient about distributing the food we abundantly overproduce and waste. Half those poor deformed chickens will end up in the trash after all that suffering to get them that big.

To ignore that is a me-me-me anthropocentric attitude to me.

With all due respect you are talking to someone who was homeless for the best part of 10 years up until last year. I have been a literal slave (modern slavery is a thing). I have never been above the poverty line. My family comes from a country where there is often no running water, electricity, proper roads, no glass in the windows and I had to seep in a tent on a concrete floor with temps approaching 104F with all the cockroaches and mosquitoes coming in through the half a foot gap between the top of the unplastered walls and tin roof full of holes. I had cholera and dengue fever to worry about. We didn't get food stamps or government money, but when I had government money or was able to work (I am disabled) I fed myself and my teenage brother (after our parents abandoned us, he BODYBUILDS AS WELL) on $60 a month or less.

Recognising that I come from an economically challenged background, I chose not to breed. I recognise that contraception isn't always cheap and readily available but it sure is cheaper than raising children when you are ill equipped to do so.

 

[3KillerBs]

Meat has always been a luxury and never something you should expect to eat every day.

Biologically, we are omnivores.

I am not ashamed of not wanting to live on a bare subsistence diet and grateful that we have the ability to engage in high-production farming that makes not having to live on a bare subsistence diet possible for lower-middle-class blue-collar workers.

 

[Canina]

Biologically, we are omnivores.

I am not ashamed of not wanting to live on a bare subsistence diet and grateful that we have the ability to engage in high-production farming that makes not having to live on a bare subsistence diet possible for lower-middle-class blue-collar workers.

Did I say that we weren't? I was just singing the praises of the ketogenic diet. if I could afford it, I would eat mostly meat and fish and way less carbs but I can't afford to.

Not spending $100 per person per month and not eating lbs and lbs of chicken is not a bare subsistence diet lol That attitude of thinking that it is a problem the first world has. Overconsumption and a sense of entitlement. Coming from someone who gets mad at others for calling people entitled for actually just wanting to get by comfortably putting a fair amount of effort in.

 

[Shadrach]

To be fair, I can understand the opinion that we've become a bit lazy using bagged feed for convenience when most commercial pet and livestock foods are often full of fillers and slightly questionable ingredients they shouldn't really have in them (you have to be freaking nutritionist and read all the fine print when looking at these labels sometimes). I can also understand the view that as much as we're more commercially successful now, SHOULD we be pushing dairy cows to be producing such high volumes of milk, SHOULD we be encouraging chickens to lay higher volumes of eggs.

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/hsus-report-breeding-egg-welfiss.pdf

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/how-the-dairy-industry-has-unnaturally-altered-the-life-of-cows/#:~:text=In order to ensure the,cows suffer from this ailment.

Whilst I'm not saying we should all go back to just stalking wild junglefowl in the hope that they might occasionally drop an egg in a bush every other Tuesday (works for my family though), but we have sacrificed some things for the sake of economic growth whilst in many cases, stunting, deforming or artificially accelerating the growth of livestock; we have all kinds of unnatural specimens now. Look at modern broiler chickens. They grow fast and produce a lot of meat but it's not good for them and not good for us. I'm saying this as someone who has been involved in farming for 16 years, never been far beyond the poverty line, lived in developing countries with unreliable running water/electricity let alone financial opportunities and have just seen a much beloved farm I used to work on shut down permanently...

I don't think all pellets are evil and the people that formulate them have the balance down to a tee (even if a lot of quail food is suspiciously low protein still) but I can understand wanting to supplement that with natural protein sources. Just ones that are't so high in fat. Or sugars. I guess gamebirds want the keto diet? So do dogs and cats but we still keep putting cornstarch and shit in pet food meant for obligate carnivores and everyone is diabetic or on the way these days... Might be the answer or all of us.

NOTE: Then again since we've tailored this the feed to these selectively bred birds designed for maximum production, trying to feed them a more 'traditional diet' would probably be a detriment to them. Maybe heritage breeds or junglefowl crosses would be better on that sort of diet.

While I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment of your post, the problem is people (on this forum at least) don't in general have the types of chickens that fare well on much apart from commercial feed.
Despite all the stuff about heritage breeds etc most of what is churned out by the hatcheries are high production imitations of the original breeds who still lay far more eggs than many of the breeds used in the more traditional free range farming environment.
Nutrition is a very very complicated subject and one which is constantly undergoing revision as new information comes to light. There is no one size fits all. However, there are some well established basics and for the vast majority of backyard chicken keepers commercial feed can cater for a chickens nutrition better than the majority of not so well informed fad feeding suggestions.
The answer to the problem for many who would like not to feed commercial feed is don't get high production commercial chickens.
The problem for many it seems is they are tackling the problem from the wrong end.

 

[Folly's place]

x100!!! @3KillerBs and @Shadrach
And yes, there are trained, expert nutritionists who have developed livestock feeds, and pet foods! Reinventing the wheel with little actual knowledge of what's needed for each species in different circumstances is not helpful.
And here in the USA, where almost nobody actually produces the food we all eat, people buy into food fads, advertising, and act like it all grows in packages at the grocery store.
I totally agree about animals developed who have genetics that make for miserable lives, like Cornishx chickens. And don't leave out pets who are selected for deformities some people think are 'cute'.
Mary

 

[3KillerBs]

Overconsumption and a sense of entitlement.

I refuse to be shamed for enjoying prosperity and abundance.

I refuse to be shamed for refusing to impose artificial poverty on my family when we have achieved a pleasant level of modest comfort.

Inexpensive, abundant food is a blessing, not a curse.

 

[Canina]

While I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment of your post the problem is people (on this forum at least) don't in general have the types of chickens that fare well on much apart from commercial feed.
Despite all the stuff about heritage breeds etc most of what is churned out by the hatcheries are high production imitations of the original breeds who still lay far more eggs than the many of the brees used in the more traditional free range ffarming environment.
Nutrition is a very very complicated subject and one which is constantly undergoing revision as new innformation comes to light. There is no one size fits all. However, there are some well established basics and for the vast majority of backyard chicken keepers commercial feed can cater for a chickens nutrition better than the majority of not so well informed fad feeding suggestions.
The answer to the problem for many who would like not to feed commercial feed is don't get high production commercial chickens.
The problem for many it seems is they are tackiling the problem from the wrong end.

I agree with this totally and thanks for getting the derailed topic back on track.

I was just saying that I can understand wanting to maximise production from the perspective of someone who genuinely knows what starving and poverty is like (as an end consumer and as a farmer) but I also don't think our demands should be met at the expense of welfare. I know there will always be division between people who are more interested in maximising production/convenience, the 'soppy' people who keep chickens as pets or have a have a more hippy-dippy, holistic, natural approach to husbandry and there will be people in between on this site.

I do suspect most Americans have a differing idea of 'modest' to the rest of the world.

I think all factory farming should be abolished. I do think there are some extreme examples of livestock animals that should just not exist, but don't have a problem with most modern breeds and pellets aren't satan spawn.

I'll stop now before distracting anyone else.