Feeding

[SourRoses]

Nothing comes from nothing.
Good bacteria are part of the normal digestive process, they make Vitamins as a byproduct of consuming carbohydrates.
Not Protein, Calories, or Minerals. Those can't be made by bacteria.

Fermented feed is basically pre-digested, so really only useful to prevent digestive issues, especially because of its lower PH. It likely has a great effect for birds under stress, and that's about it.

It's "cheaper" to put less into the birds but you will also get less out of them. Everything comes from something.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

This, btw, is your source's source. Note that no explanation is given for why dry matter consumption appears to have dropped, certainly not the expanded feed volume your source suggested. The linked study also points out delayed onset of lay on FF, increases in behavioral complaints (aggression), dislike for the feed by the chickens, and increased average egg weights for just 4 weeks out of 20.

Additionally, the study is a bit "cavalier" with their claims of significant and insignificant. I'll illustrate.

Study claims no significant drop in egg production on FF, but offers a production rate over the period of 75% on FF, and 82% on dry. That's a 10% difference in frequency. It also claims no significant difference in egg weight production, the hens on FF averaging 42g/day and the hens on dry averaging 45g/day - that's a 3g/day difference in production (roughly 7%, likely accounted for by the increased rate of lay the study's author deemed "not significant"), yet when the authors are discussing the 4 weeks (of 20) with increased egg weights on FF? The difference is 61.4 g vs 60.0 g average. Just 2.5%...

I take those as **suggestive** that the study authors were seeking any claimed benefit in support of FF, rather than neutrally interpreting the results of their study.

I invite you to read it yourself, and draw your own conclusions. You don't need a slick web page to do it for you.

 

[ChickyCh00k]

But that part is WRONG

Ok. I understand what you're saying. I didn't write the article. I'm just putting the info put there.

 

[NatJ]

Ok. I understand what you're saying. I didn't write the article. I'm just putting the info put there.

Now that you know it's wrong, you can avoid spreading that bit of error any further

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Ok. I understand what you're saying. I didn't write the article. I'm just putting the info put there.

and what we are saying is that if you look at your source's sources, they largely don't support your source's contentions.

That's pretty common with slick web pages, self proclaimed experts (you will note, I don't claim to be one), and Youtube personalities.

Welcome to BYC. Some of us are quite serious hobbyists, and frankly, more is known about chicken nutrition than human nutrition (an admittedly low bar). By all means, jump in, water's fine - but be prepared with more support than "web page said so". Particularly when webpage makes the kind of ill informed mistakes one would expect to find in a Facebook meme.

 

[ChickyCh00k]

I invite you to read it yourself, and draw your own conclusions. You don't need a slick web page to do it for you.

I did read the publication. I'm aware that it says there were some drawbacks with the FF, but they also accounted for those drawbacks through further discussion of why those issues may have occurred and offered suggestions (such as feeding FF from an earlier age and not under stressed conditions) to overcome some of those problems. The publication does note the improved digestive health and feed conversion ratio of those fed with FF (which is what my original comment was about).

I'm not some kind of crazy fermented feed propagandist, I was just giving information that I thought could be helpful.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I did read the publication. I'm aware that it says there were some drawbacks with the FF, but they also accounted for those drawbacks through further discussion of why those issues may have occurred and offered suggestions (such as feeding FF from an earlier age and not under stressed conditions) to overcome some of those problems. The publication does note the improved digestive health and feed conversion ratio of those fed with FF (which is what my original comment was about).

I'm not some kind of crazy fermented feed propagandist, I was just giving information that I thought could be helpful.

Idle speculation about potential mitigation measures is not "proof of concept", its merely an unteste potential. The primary benefits of FF are much like the benefits of ACV - acidify the gut, and select for a different batch of bacteria.

Not that I'm entirely anti FF - there are times its quite useful. One of our posters is storing whole buckwheat (because it keeps longer whole), and fermenting is an easy, low labor way to get at the most valuable (from a feed perspective) portions of the buckwheat post long term storage. Fermenting is also valuable if you feed whole grains/seeds/etc, as it makes it somewhat more difficult for top of flock to pick out favorites, leaving less desirable ingredients to chickens lower in pecking order (and thus increasing the likelihood of nutritional imbalance throughout the flock). Fermenting is valuable in the case of certain bacterial infections/challenges, **particularly** if your water source is rather alkaline. [ACV can serve the same purpose - but then, you should get your water tested, so you know both your tap Ph and your desired (target) Ph. Its not magic, its chemistry. Unless unreliable satisfies, in which case, go ahead with "magic".]

 

[ChickyCh00k]

@U_Stormcrow I'm just curious as to why I need to "be prepared with more support..." when no other person commenting @ me has cited a single source...? I supported my comment with a source. That source lists several other sources (not just the one you've critiqued), and yet I'M the one being called out for not having given proper support for my comment.

This is exactly the kind of lunacy I was hoping NOT to encounter here (I hate social media). Apparently, I shouldn't have commented at all, or at least I shouldn't have responded to any of the replies to me - as this entire thread has become a pissing contest over fermented feed, which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

I'm a proponent of whatever keeps someone's chickens happy, healthy and free from harm. If fermented feed helps someone, great, if it doesn't, great. Do what works for you. I'll keep researching.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Those highlighted portions (maybe your browser doesn't show them?) in my comment here were sources in support of the contentions several of us have made about the way chickens regulate feed intake, which does not relate to volume, but rather ME (which you will sometimes see as MkJ, and even DE). I can link sources for similar changes in upper GI bacterial inhabitants from ACV if you'd like, and I think it obvious to all that I linked (and commented) on the study for which your source cites as basis for their beliefs.

Nothing personal. They are mistaken. No need to defend them.

If you'd like sources for the seemingly self evident comment that the alteration in nutritional values of a given feed by fermentation relate to both the feed in question, and the fermenting entity(ies), I can link those too.

 

[high5]

There's going to be variation based on breed, on feed, and on weather conditions - but the "thumb rule" is that an adult hen eats about 1/4# per chicken per day. So you are looking at about 35# per week, as much as 40# with waste factored in.

Hi @U_Stormcrow

Sorry for sounding stupid, but what does the "#" after the number represent?