FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[niqueie]

That is the way I started out, but I prefer my dryer ferment now. My ferment is puffy like pegm stated. I think that both are fermented and it is a personal preference.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

That is the way I started out, but I prefer my dryer ferment now. My ferment is puffy like pegm stated. I think that both are fermented and it is a personal preference.

Ditto.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

...


I just started a probiotic and FF experiment.
I had 34 chicks hatch last week. The first 3 days they were together and were fed 22% grower crumbles and de-chlorinated water containing probiotics and vitamins.
I then separated them into 3 groups, selected randomly and all are the same breed.
Group 1 (control group) is getting 22% grower and plain chlorinated city water.
Group 2 is getting the same 22% grower and de-chlorinated water with Gro-2-Max probiotic powder.
Group 3 is getting FF using the same 22% grower and de-chlorinated water without the probiotic powder.
They are all the same breed and hatched inside a 55 hour window.
I weighed them at 3 days and will weigh at 7 days and every week thereafter. After about 4 weeks, if I see a difference, I'll start the control group on probiotics but continue the FF and non FF experiment.
I have also weighed the feed each group is getting. For the FF group, I'm weighing the feed dry before fermenting so I'll have a better handle on actual dry feed consumed.

If anyone has suggestions on something I should consider or that I'm missing, feel free to chime in.

First report after 1 week.

Control group 1 - 59% weight gain.

Group 2 (only probiotics in de-chlorinated water) 65% weight gain.

Group 3 (fermented feed/no probiotics but de-chlorinated water) 65% weight gain.

This is very preliminary but after a week, I surmise that regardless of whether the probiotics come from the water or feed, feed conversion is the same.
All 3 have the same feed. The FF has yeast, ACV and the same probiotic powder added that is in group 2's water.

If it continues like this, feed conversion will be simpler just with the probiotics in the water.
Feed conservation, on the other hand, is probably better with FF.
I've been keeping track of how much food each group goes through and it is too early to tell. Groups 1 and 2 are using about the same amount of dry feed. Currently, I'm mixing 500 gram batches of FF so it will probably be at least 3 weeks before I get a good handle on how much feed they're using.

 

[niqueie]

It might be too late to change, but it might be better to switch the fermented feed group to a simple ferment of just water and feed to ferment. That will show if it is just the fermentation adding the active cultures into the feed instead of adding those yeasts and probiotics and ACV into the feed and fermenting. Just my 2 cents. I'm excited that you are doing this experiment.

 

[Little Wing]

First report after 1 week.

Control group 1 - 59% weight gain.

Group 2 (only probiotics in de-chlorinated water) 65% weight gain.

Group 3 (fermented feed/no probiotics but de-chlorinated water) 65% weight gain.

This is very preliminary but after a week, I surmise that regardless of whether the probiotics come from the water or feed, feed conversion is the same.
All 3 have the same feed. The FF has yeast, ACV and the same probiotic powder added that is in group 2's water.

If it continues like this, feed conversion will be simpler just with the probiotics in the water.
Feed conservation, on the other hand, is probably better with FF.
I've been keeping track of how much food each group goes through and it is too early to tell. Groups 1 and 2 are using about the same amount of dry feed. Currently, I'm mixing 500 gram batches of FF so it will probably be at least 3 weeks before I get a good handle on how much feed they're using.

This is awesome information. I have been fermenting almost 6 months and I didn't weigh my hens before starting FF but can feel that they are heavier.
My feed bill has been cut almost in half.

Thanks for updating!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

It might be too late to change, but it might be better to switch the fermented feed group to a simple ferment of just water and feed to ferment. That will show if it is just the fermentation adding the active cultures into the feed instead of adding those yeasts and probiotics and ACV into the feed and fermenting. Just my 2 cents. I'm excited that you are doing this experiment.

Thanks for the idea.
This isn't the last such experiment I'll be doing. I have been reluctant to do a simple ferment because one has no control of the type of free yeasts that take hold of the feed. The next round, I think I may try 3 types of FF, one with ACV (acetobacter fermentation), one with live culture buttermilk (anaerobic lactic acid fermentation) and one with the probiotic powder.

This is awesome information. I have been fermenting almost 6 months and I didn't weigh my hens before starting FF but can feel that they are heavier.
My feed bill has been cut almost in half.

Thanks for updating!

I kick myself for not keeping better feed consumption records for my older birds prior to and after switching to FF.
I can still tell I'm using less though. I attribute that to less waste. It would be difficult because I still keep dry bulk feeders but give all the flocks a dose of FF in the morning and again in the afternoon.
This is the first opportunity I've had to compare growing birds starting from scratch.
With all the discussion of growth and feed savings I wanted to test the theory.
Using all the same breed and starting early should help.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

It might be too late to change, but it might be better to switch the fermented feed group to a simple ferment of just water and feed to ferment. That will show if it is just the fermentation adding the active cultures into the feed instead of adding those yeasts and probiotics and ACV into the feed and fermenting. Just my 2 cents. I'm excited that you are doing this experiment.

I like this idea. I think that would be more of a directly useful comparrison for a lot of people. Dry feed vs. same feed as Fermented Feed with no extras.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I like this idea. I think that would be more of a directly useful comparrison for a lot of people. Dry feed vs. same feed as Fermented Feed with no extras.

Good point. My purpose of this experiment was to compare the way I raised chicks a few years ago with the way I raised them last year and the way I hope to raise them in the future.

Another discovery which I plan to keep a closer eye on is pasted vent.
Group 1 had several with some degree of pasting, 2 were severe.
Group 2 had just slightly less and only 1 severe.
Group 3 had very few but 1 was severe.
So after 1 week, my takeaway so far is that the FF somewhat limited pasting.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

The fermenting may increase the protein of the grain somewhat and it also improves gut flora so nutrients in the feed become more available.
I don't add that much grain and I don't use corn at all. Just some wheat, barley, and flax. In summer I'll switch to mostly oat groats. All of those are significantly higher in protein and no GMOs.
Eggs are about 5 or 6 grams of protein so it does take significantly more protein to make eggs. Bee is right though, adult birds that aren't molting or laying can get by nicely on about 13% or so protein.
Roosters only need 13-15%.

I've been reading the Feeding Poultry book. It defines a bird "in production" as a bird which is growing, regrowing feathers after molt, recovering from an illness, laying, etc. Specific to laying, it says this about protein requirements:

Feeding Poultry
Chapter 13 [starts on page 383]
Feeding and Management for Egg Production

[I've retyped this, so please verify everything for yourself. Full text, including footnotes, is available to read for free online at this link: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003011545;view=1up;seq=399 ]

Protein. Satisfactory production cannot be obtained unless additional protein, besides that found in grains, is supplied.

Halnan made the accompanying estimates of the protein and energy requirements of a laying hen.

Hens in production require a continuous supply of protein since the nitrogen required for egg production is largely, if not entirely, drawn from the food. An insufficient amount of protein will result in decreased egg production, lower body weight, and smaller egg size. A shortage of albumin in the ration has been reported as resulting in pickouts which ceased directly after albumin had been fed.

Where birds were given the opportunity of balancing their own ration, some birds laid well and gained on a 12 to 13 per cent protein level while others wanted or required a higher level. Non-laying birds thrived and prepared to lay on an 11 per cent protein ration. In general, egg production was in accordance with the protein level, but the highest levels were not always the most economical.

Experimental results generally show that a ration containing 12 per cent protein was not sufficient for satisfactory egg production, body weight, or egg size; that the 14 per cent protein ration gave satisfactory egg production but did not maintain body weight at all times and was not conducive to best egg size; that the 16 per cent protein ration was satisfactory in all respects.

Workers in the United States Department of Agriculture report that increasing the percentage of protein in the diet, within the limits of 11.2 percent and 23.6 per cent by the use of protein supplements of different origin, augmented egg production (1) by increasing intensity of production, (2) by increasing egg weight through direct effect on yolk weight, and (3) indirectly by increasing body weight and yolk weight, thereby increasing albumen weight. INcreasing the protein level, within the limits stated increased the quantity of egg produced per unit weight of feed eaten. Increasing the protein content decreased the efficiency of protein for egg production.

In studying the relationship of ruptured yolk to fowl paralysis, Moore reports that results over a period of 3 years indicate higher mortality from a flock receiving a 13.5 per cent protein ration than from on receiving an 18.5 per cent protein diet. Bronkhorst reports higher mortality do to prolapse from pullets on a basal mash containing 10 per cent of meat meal than from pullets fed mixtures containing 15 and 20 per cent of meat meal. Prolapse was frequently followed by cannibalism and did not appear to be influenced by egg size, egg yield, or age at sexual maturity.

Byerly suggests, as a result of food requirement studies, that possibly smaller birds require a higher percentage of crude protein in the diet than larger birds, for the same degree of production.

The question might arise concerning a possibility of feeding an excess of protein. The Western Washington Station states that all-mash rations containing 30 per cent of a protein concentrate did not produce a high percentage of organic trouble. It would appear from this, as well as from the experiences of others, that hens can tolerate a fairly high protein ration if other conditions are favorable.

As a general summary, it would seem that in order to promote satisfactory production, maintain body weight, and secure good egg size, the ration should contain 15 to 16 percent of protein. Part of this should come from animal source. If the birds are on good range, favorable results can be obtained with a lower amount of protein in the ration.

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There is an awful lot said in that last sentence, no?

 

[Beekissed]

I've been reading the Feeding Poultry book. It defines a bird "in production" as a bird which is growing, regrowing feathers after molt, recovering from an illness, laying, etc. Specific to laying, it says this about protein requirements:

Feeding Poultry
Chapter 13 [starts on page 383]
Feeding and Management for Egg Production

[I've retyped this, so please verify everything for yourself. Full text, including footnotes, is available to read for free online at this link: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003011545;view=1up;seq=399 ]

Protein. Satisfactory production cannot be obtained unless additional protein, besides that found in grains, is supplied.

Halnan made the accompanying estimates of the protein and energy requirements of a laying hen.

Hens in production require a continuous supply of protein since the nitrogen required for egg production is largely, if not entirely, drawn from the food. An insufficient amount of protein will result in decreased egg production, lower body weight, and smaller egg size. A shortage of albumin in the ration has been reported as resulting in pickouts which ceased directly after albumin had been fed.

Where birds were given the opportunity of balancing their own ration, some birds laid well and gained on a 12 to 13 per cent protein level while others wanted or required a higher level. Non-laying birds thrived and prepared to lay on an 11 per cent protein ration. In general, egg production was in accordance with the protein level, but the highest levels were not always the most economical.

Experimental results generally show that a ration containing 12 per cent protein was not sufficient for satisfactory egg production, body weight, or egg size; that the 14 per cent protein ration gave satisfactory egg production but did not maintain body weight at all times and was not conducive to best egg size; that the 16 per cent protein ration was satisfactory in all respects.

Workers in the United States Department of Agriculture report that increasing the percentage of protein in the diet, within the limits of 11.2 percent and 23.6 per cent by the use of protein supplements of different origin, augmented egg production (1) by increasing intensity of production, (2) by increasing egg weight through direct effect on yolk weight, and (3) indirectly by increasing body weight and yolk weight, thereby increasing albumen weight. INcreasing the protein level, within the limits stated increased the quantity of egg produced per unit weight of feed eaten. Increasing the protein content decreased the efficiency of protein for egg production.

In studying the relationship of ruptured yolk to fowl paralysis, Moore reports that results over a period of 3 years indicate higher mortality from a flock receiving a 13.5 per cent protein ration than from on receiving an 18.5 per cent protein diet. Bronkhorst reports higher mortality do to prolapse from pullets on a basal mash containing 10 per cent of meat meal than from pullets fed mixtures containing 15 and 20 per cent of meat meal. Prolapse was frequently followed by cannibalism and did not appear to be influenced by egg size, egg yield, or age at sexual maturity.

Byerly suggests, as a result of food requirement studies, that possibly smaller birds require a higher percentage of crude protein in the diet than larger birds, for the same degree of production.

The question might arise concerning a possibility of feeding an excess of protein. The Western Washington Station states that all-mash rations containing 30 per cent of a protein concentrate did not produce a high percentage of organic trouble. It would appear from this, as well as from the experiences of others, that hens can tolerate a fairly high protein ration if other conditions are favorable.

As a general summary, it would seem that in order to promote satisfactory production, maintain body weight, and secure good egg size, the ration should contain 15 to 16 percent of protein. Part of this should come from animal source. If the birds are on good range, favorable results can be obtained with a lower amount of protein in the ration.

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There is an awful lot said in that last sentence, no?

Excellent information, LJ!

And, yes, an awful lot said in that last sentence.

I'm guilty of imagining that everyone has a setup like mine and I think most folks feel the same way, so when talking about how they feed, what they feed or don't feed, they tend to think only in what their own bird's needs have been in the past. Mine have access to forage all year long if the snow is not too deep~which is rare nowadays~so they are constantly augmenting their diet with the white dutch clover and other grasses that grow throughout our winters here, though the nutrition in those grasses is lower in the cold weather.

I also only keep dual purpose breeds now so the high protein needs of production layers isn't in my wheelhouse and my big, meaty birds seem to thrive on lower levels of protein than other people are feeding. I never feed higher than the layer ration I buy on protein, though the grasses and bugs they eat here are considerably higher in proteins.

Great article, LJ! Thank you for posting it!