FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Beekissed]

I kick myself for not keeping better feed consumption records for my older birds prior to and after switching to FF.
I can still tell I'm using less though. I attribute that to less waste. It would be difficult because I still keep dry bulk feeders but give all the flocks a dose of FF in the morning and again in the afternoon.
This is the first opportunity I've had to compare growing birds starting from scratch.
With all the discussion of growth and feed savings I wanted to test the theory.
Using all the same breed and starting early should help.

I wish now I had saved the post, but one of our members here keeps excellent feed records and worked out the savings she had experienced for us and broke it all down...she was paying nearly half of her former feed costs per year by switching to the FF. I was duly impressed and it was great to see someone had worked it out on paper, as I just had the general "feel" of it due to not buying feed as often as I formerly did for the same amount of birds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieDJoyce


I keep practically no records. A while back, we went through the feed store receipts/records and put that in a spreadsheet along with daily egg counts taken over some months. But of course, we also had meat birds, turkeys, ducks, roosters, chicks, blah blah blah ... The information is virtually useless, except that it does help with gaining some perspective if one puts a price on the eggs and compares that "income" to the feed expenses.

We don't dare factor in the Home Depot charges.

The results inspired me to start fermenting a feed with the hopes of saving some money on feed.

I've found that gaining profit on eggs only comes when you cut down the overhead, even for us minor sellers. Finding ways to STOP spending is the key and FF is certainly one of those, in my book.

Another help is to keep accounts for layers and meat producers separate as much as possible, because meat profit is realized in large bunches and egg profits are a steady trickle it's often hard to see who the big earner truly is. If you find you make more from one than the other, it may be more profitable to concentrate your resources on the one that requires less initial costs vs. total profit.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Actually, a bird "in production" is one that is actively laying.
~~"a bird which is growing, regrowing feathers after molt, recovering from an illness, laying, etc" is a bird that is NOT "in production".
The latter are those with dramatically decreased need for calcium and a greater need for protein.

The book generally sets calcium aside, as that is one of the more variable nutrients ... offering calcium "free choice" simplifies things.

The book does state that it is wise to consider the concept of production as broader than simply laying hens during laying season ... for the purpose of considering the nutritional needs of the bird ... to support the topic of the book which is "Feeding Poultry." So the book does acknowledge the common definition of "in production" ... the author just chose to broaden that definition a bit.

At that point, there are various discussion of protein requirements for birds at many different stages of "production," from growth of the chick to point of lay to forced molt to recovery of molt to preparing to breed to ... whatever. There are all kinds of quantifications of the protein needs, and also other key nutrients, at all different stages of all of those factors. LOTS of quantifying, but mostly on the lower ends of the requirements and fizzling out toward the upper ends when economic returns become negligible.

I think it is an interesting way of looking at the notion of "production."

 

[LindaB220]

Thanks. I'm having a lot of fun reading that book. I love that it is available free online.

When reading the first sections of the book, about individual nutrients and what deficiencies in those nutrients caused in the form of deformity or disease or bad behavior, SO many deficiencies were corrected with feeding liver and green stuff. He states that what might present as a protein deficiency is actually a deficiency of a particular vitamin or mineral, for which animal proteins are a good source.

The chapter in Feeding Poultry on feeding breeders starts off with a huge chunk of info about vitamin D, and how sunshine is the best source of vitamin D, as sunshine contains some "unknown factor" science had not identified or replicated at the time of writing. Sprinkle that factoid throughout the rest off the book like stardust, and see why broody raised chicks are more vigorous than hand-raised chicks, etc.

When birds have access to great forage like yours, they have access to sunshine, too. And bugs.

There are tidbits in the book about all the microbes birds get from scratching around in the litter, and also scratching around outdoors. I think this accounts for a lot of the B vitamins ... so this can explain why deep litter is "healthier." And if deep litter is healthy enough to contain bugs ...

I know you have deep litter in your coops.

Fermented Feed is part of a whole system.

Yes, I'm definitely loving this book. Thanks

 

[Tikkijane]

Excellent information, LJ!        And, yes, an awful lot said in that last sentence. 

I'm guilty of imagining that everyone has a setup like mine and I think most folks feel the same way, so when talking about how they feed, what they feed or don't feed, they tend to think only in what their own bird's needs have been in the past.  Mine have access to forage all year long if the snow is not too deep~which is rare nowadays~so they are constantly augmenting their diet with the white dutch clover and other grasses that grow throughout our winters here, though the nutrition in those grasses is lower in the cold weather. 

I also only keep dual purpose breeds now so the high protein needs of production layers isn't in my wheelhouse and my big, meaty birds seem to thrive on lower levels of protein than other people are feeding.  I never feed higher than the layer ration I buy on protein, though the grasses and bugs they eat here are considerably higher in proteins.

Great article, LJ!  Thank you for posting it! 

What I find interesting are all the folks that have chickens who are picky eaters. Even when we had a run and they spent part of the day inside it, I've *never* had chickens that didn't gobble absolutely everything without any "management" on my end past throwing it out to them.

I really do wonder how the "picky" chickens got that way. I wonder if they had never been exposed to the outside past their runs. ... we learned pretty early on that if we wanted to eat our food, it had to be away from the chickens because they would (literally) hop on oyr heads trying to jump and get the contents of our bowls.

I think how they live has a huge impact on all kinds of things, personally.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Since I'm just finding my way with FF, I've taken a bit of a shotgun approach but I plan on refining it.
Up till now, for the adult birds in a 5 gallon pickle bucket I fill just over half full with "Nature's Grown Organics" brand 16% chick grower along with a about 16 oz. each of wheat and barley. Approximately the following mixed in:
5 oz. Braggs organic ACV
1 Tbsp. Fleischmann's active dry yeast
1 Tbsp. gro2MAX probiotic blend for chickens
1 tsp. mineral supplement
cover everything with de-chlorinated water.

Is that safe? I've read about supplementing with Brewer's yeast ... and other "nutritional" yeasts formulated for the livestock industry ... but I thought there was a general warning against active dry yeasts, or raw bread doughs, etc.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I've found that gaining profit on eggs only comes when you cut down the overhead, even for us minor sellers. Finding ways to STOP spending is the key and FF is certainly one of those, in my book.

Another help is to keep accounts for layers and meat producers separate as much as possible, because meat profit is realized in large bunches and egg profits are a steady trickle it's often hard to see who the big earner truly is. If you find you make more from one than the other, it may be more profitable to concentrate your resources on the one that requires less initial costs vs. total profit.

No doubt! I think I figured out that first dozen eggs, that I sold for $2.50 ... should have tacked on several zeros. Lots of overhead in a startup. Hardware cloth is stupid expensive.

And ... meat birds ... turkeys ... ugh. We had THE WORST time getting feed for the poults this year. THE WORST! I started a year in advance printing out info for the feed needs of poults and giving that info to the feed store where I ordered the babies and asking them to make absolutely sure they had feed for them before they arrived. I told them how many pounds of it I'd need, etc. They did not source the feed I requested (from the same company that makes the layer feed, etc.), and they only found the most expensive brand of turkey feed on the planet, in the tiniest most uselsess quantities and ARGH! I was SO angry. I had to order new feed every day ... I'd tell them how much "more" I'd need, they get me one 10 lb bag. ARGH!!!

When I'd give them printouts of books and internet pages saying poults need a 28% protein feed, they actually told me I needed to "stay off the Internet."

Should have sold the turkey for $20/lb I think. Cuz you just know there are people clammoring for 50+ lbs of $20/lb turkey for Thanksgiving.

No. We are not not buying any of our poultry feeds from that feed store any more. And I was their biggest fan, recommending them to everyone in the area.

The woman who orders the birds is absolutely lovely -- a real star -- so it is a great place to get hatchery birds. The people who do the feed are arrogant, jerky men that even my ex-military-and-decidedly "distinguished" father cannot coax into decent service. I'm neither cute nor scary, so I never had a chance.

I'm ranting. Time for a chocolate break.

 

[Beekissed]

The book generally sets calcium aside, as that is one of the more variable nutrients ... offering calcium "free choice" simplifies things.

The book does state that it is wise to consider the concept of production as broader than simply laying hens during laying season ... for the purpose of considering the nutritional needs of the bird ... to support the topic of the book which is "Feeding Poultry." So the book does acknowledge the common definition of "in production" ... the author just chose to broaden that definition a bit.

At that point, there are various discussion of protein requirements for birds at many different stages of "production," from growth of the chick to point of lay to forced molt to recovery of molt to preparing to breed to ... whatever. There are all kinds of quantifications of the protein needs, and also other key nutrients, at all different stages of all of those factors. LOTS of quantifying, but mostly on the lower ends of the requirements and fizzling out toward the upper ends when economic returns become negligible.

I think it is an interesting way of looking at the notion of "production."

One thing I think is often overlooked in poultry in regards to calcium is the foraging of good grasses and how absorptive the calcium there is to the animal. I've offered OS in the past free choice and saw no changes in the flock whatsoever, though they did nibble it down to size. I've deduced that my flock gets adequate calcium from their diet that is high in the right kind of calcium that is easier for them to absorb from a natural diet of bugs, worms, lizards, snakes and pasture grasses.

I find what he says about the usability of the calcium in feeds and I think the process of fermentation is helping with that absorption, if anything can be derived from the reports of thicker shells when using FF. I've fed OS and not gotten any thicker shells than previously but this FF does seem to increase shell thickness to some degree.

I also note he quotes calcium needs for production birds to be higher than what one typically finds in a layer ration. I'm thinking the access to pasture and bug forage will always be the most efficacious way of providing these essential nutrients to our chickens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkijane


What I find interesting are all the folks that have chickens who are picky eaters. Even when we had a run and they spent part of the day inside it, I've *never* had chickens that didn't gobble absolutely everything without any "management" on my end past throwing it out to them.

I really do wonder how the "picky" chickens got that way. I wonder if they had never been exposed to the outside past their runs. ... we learned pretty early on that if we wanted to eat our food, it had to be away from the chickens because they would (literally) hop on oyr heads trying to jump and get the contents of our bowls.

I think how they live has a huge impact on all kinds of things, personally.

I agree! I also think that comes from birds fed free choice and treats from the time they arrive at their owner's house. Think of all the kids you know who are picky eaters...usually they have been given a lot of choices in their diet and allowed to eat when they please and what they please. Kids from homes where food is not so plentiful nor diverse seem to be less picky, overall, about what they consume.

Same with dogs, horses, cats, etc.

 

[Beekissed]

No doubt! I think I figured out that first dozen eggs, that I sold for $2.50 ... should have tacked on several zeros. Lots of overhead in a startup. Hardware cloth is stupid expensive.

And ... meat birds ... turkeys ... ugh. We had THE WORST time getting feed for the poults this year. THE WORST! I started a year in advance printing out info for the feed needs of poults and giving that info to the feed store where I ordered the babies and asking them to make absolutely sure they had feed for them before they arrived. I told them how many pounds of it I'd need, etc. They did not source the feed I requested (from the same company that makes the layer feed, etc.), and they only found the most expensive brand of turkey feed on the planet, in the tiniest most uselsess quantities and ARGH! I was SO angry. I had to order new feed every day ... I'd tell them how much "more" I'd need, they get me one 10 lb bag. ARGH!!!

When I'd give them printouts of books and internet pages saying poults need a 28% protein feed, they actually told me I needed to "stay off the Internet."

Should have sold the turkey for $20/lb I think. Cuz you just know there are people clammoring for 50+ lbs of $20/lb turkey for Thanksgiving.

No. We are not not buying any of our poultry feeds from that feed store any more. And I was their biggest fan, recommending them to everyone in the area.

The woman who orders the birds is absolutely lovely -- a real star -- so it is a great place to get hatchery birds. The people who do the feed are arrogant, jerky men that even my ex-military-and-decidedly "distinguished" father cannot coax into decent service. I'm neither cute nor scary, so I never had a chance.

I'm ranting. Time for a chocolate break.

Sounds like a good solution! Chocolate 500mg, take two every 4 hours as needed.

I don't know that the small grower can do turkeys and make any kind of profit but maybe on broiler birds they can...at least, that's what I've heard. Where I have been living there are a lot of poultry houses, turkey, broiler and layers. No one tries to do it small scale there because there is virtually no market for them...anyone who owns a poultry house is not going to support pasture raised and healthier alternatives and all their relatives work at their houses, so that nixes all the population there. Anyone who doesn't work there are buying their manure to spread on their hay fields or they work at the local turkey plant.

Growing birds for personal needs or for a niche market makes it a little more simple because those consumers don't need a 20 lb engorged looking turkey on their table and they understand the difference between birds grown rapidly on a lot of high pro feeds and those grown more slowly on a more natural diet of pasture and whole grains.

We've grown turkeys out from poults on just pasture and whole corn before, so 28% protein may be what is recommended but not necessarily what is necessary to get a bird to the table.

 

[kpgoldstar]

That is the way I started out, but I prefer my dryer ferment now. My ferment is puffy like pegm stated. I think that both are fermented and it is a personal preference.

Same with me and my experience.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Is that safe? I've read about supplementing with Brewer's yeast ... and other "nutritional" yeasts formulated for the livestock industry ... but I thought there was a general warning against active dry yeasts, or raw bread doughs, etc.

Since it is a bakers' yeast, I'm pretty sure it is safer than any wild unknown free yeasts in the air that one would inoculate their FF with.
If one doesn't inoculate. One doesn't know what safe or unsafe things are in there - including molds.