FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[22qZoo]

Vitamin C= chocolate

 

[Beekissed]

Since it is a bakers' yeast, I'm pretty sure it is safer than any wild unknown free yeasts in the air that one would inoculate their FF with.
If one doesn't inoculate. One doesn't know what safe or unsafe things are in there - including molds.

I think there are a lot of folks not inoculating and the reason being is that the wild yeasts that grow lactobacillus are a mite stronger than other molds in the air unless, of course, you live in one seriously moldy, damp household. If your mix, left open to air, grows nothing but harmful molds, this is not a place where anyone should be living at all.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I think having chick grit available helps with pasting. Do you have chick grit available?

Thanks for the input. I never used to give chicks grit since they were only eating crumbles but have been doing so for about the last year.

I've noticed, in my chick rearing, that pasting also seems to derive from brooder temps and their consistency, so was wondering if you were factoring that in?

Thanks for the reminder, the first time I ever raised chicks, I pretty much attributed it to temperature swings.
I normally brood them in a building with large Ohio style hover brooders where they can find their comfort zone as with a broody hen but roosters are occupying it now and with sub-zero temps for a few days that was out of the question. My cellar hovers around 55. 2 brooders are on a long table and the third on the floor with a blanket under it.
We're getting a warm up and my new heat elements should be here by Monday

I noticed I had a little pasting in my last brooder because of cold coming up from the ground...I had forgotten to place a barrier there under the bedding as I had previously. When I decreased the brooder size just a little and placed something under the coop bedding for them, it cleared my inconsistent brooder temps up right away and the pasting left immediately thereafter. They were on FF so I don't think it was the diet but the irregular temps I was providing, so now I always look at that when folks mention pasting.

I agree on the definition of production...at least, for me, production is when they are in peak laying season...if the majority of my flock are laying in the winter I call that production levels and I keep them on more of the layer ration. If they are not, I cut it down with whole grains. Come early spring when laying production increases, I increase the layer ration mix to 100%. Right now, by sheer happenstance of layer mash being the cheapest grain at the mill, my whole flock are on 100% with some BOSS thrown in for fat. They've been on that for some time now and I was getting only one egg a day from an ancient WR.

Now, however, a few pullets have decided to start laying.

~~In the broiler industry they recommend heating the floor between flocks, before applying new bedding and bringing in chicks.
My brooder house has a concrete floor (which is probably frozen now). In cold weather, I put down a sheet of 3/4 inch OSB or particle board and then a good layer of shavings on top of it.
If propane was cheaper, I'd run a heater in there a couple days before the chicks go in but that really isn't practical.

One thing I think is often overlooked in poultry in regards to calcium is the foraging of good grasses and how absorptive the calcium there is to the animal. I've offered OS in the past free choice and saw no changes in the flock whatsoever, though they did nibble it down to size. I've deduced that my flock gets adequate calcium from their diet that is high in the right kind of calcium that is easier for them to absorb from a natural diet of bugs, worms, lizards, snakes and pasture grasses.


I find what he says about the usability of the calcium in feeds and I think the process of fermentation is helping with that absorption, if anything can be derived from the reports of thicker shells when using FF. I've fed OS and not gotten any thicker shells than previously but this FF does seem to increase shell thickness to some degree.

I also note he quotes calcium needs for production birds to be higher than what one typically finds in a layer ration. I'm thinking the access to pasture and bug forage will always be the most efficacious way of providing these essential nutrients to our chickens.
...

There is definitely a lot of calcium in exoskeletons and greens.
I think that's why over a hundred years ago before there was poultry feed the barnyard chickens roaming at large did fine.
Once the calcium intake is sufficient that the meddulary bone is replenished and egg shells are sufficiently hard, there won't be any more mineral applied to the shell and excess intake has to be processed by the kidneys.
Commercial egg farms put acidifiers in the feed for better utilization of calcium so I surmise the FF does the same (as does ACV in the water).
Here's a report from a Canadian feed company that talks about the value of large particle OS in layer diets so it stays in the upper digestive tract longer and then reaches the calcium absorption sites in the intestine at night when the egg is in the shell gland. It also speaks to the importance of a hen having a choice when to consume calcium as in separate OS.
http://www.nutrecocanada.com/docs/s...-formation-and-eggshell-quality-in-layers.pdf

http://www.idosi.org/wasj/wasj12(3)/21.pdf

another good story about free range in winter

http://www.agriculture.com/livestock/poultry/feed/feeding-freerge-chickens-in-winter_292-ar28128

I think there are a lot of folks not inoculating and the reason being is that the wild yeasts that grow lactobacillus are a mite stronger than other molds in the air unless, of course, you live in one seriously moldy, damp household. If your mix, left open to air, grows nothing but harmful molds, this is not a place where anyone should be living at all.

Good point. Just getting started on FF, I'm cautious. I'd hate to kill a bunch of rare birds when all had been fine before. I was only going to try one flock at first but I loved the lesser feed usage so I started giving it to all of them. I have one flock of roosters that doesn't seem to be very fond though.

 

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by Beekissed


"I think there are a lot of folks not inoculating and the reason being is that the wild yeasts that grow lactobacillus are a mite stronger than other molds in the air unless, of course, you live in one seriously moldy, damp household. If your mix, left open to air, grows nothing but harmful molds, this is not a place where anyone should be living at all. "

If your mix is properly covered with water, it won't grow mold. lacto fermentation is anaerobic, while I believe mold is aerobic. I ferment whole grains so usually don't have anything helpful to add, but I have noticed the trend away from keeping the feed covered in water and also wanting to allow less time for the ferment to happen. Neither are particularly harmful to chickens ( as long as you don't have mold), because even moistened feed is considered beneficial,BUT neither promote the ferment, leaving a good chance that many of us are feeding moistened feed, not fermented feed. That is one reason that when I see someone having "unusual" problems using "fermented" feed I tend to advise them to go back to the beginning and insure that what they are feeding, is in fact, fermented.

 

[Beekissed]

Originally Posted by Beekissed


I think there are a lot of folks not inoculating and the reason being is that the wild yeasts that grow lactobacillus are a mite stronger than other molds in the air unless, of course, you live in one seriously moldy, damp household. If your mix, left open to air, grows nothing but harmful molds, this is not a place where anyone should be living at all.

If your mix is properly covered with water, it won't grow mold. lacto fermentation is anaerobic, while I believe mold is aerobic. I ferment whole grains so usually don't have anything helpful to add, but I have noticed the trend away from keeping the feed covered in water and also wanting to allow less time for the ferment to happen. Neither are particularly harmful to chickens ( as long as you don't have mold), because even moistened feed is considered beneficial,BUT neither promote the ferment, leaving a good chance that many of us are feeding moistened feed, not fermented feed. That is one reason that when I see someone having "unusual" problems using "fermented" feed I tend to advise them to go back to the beginning and insure that what they are feeding, is in fact, fermented.

Most folks who are feeding a dryer mix are feeding from rebatched mixes...meaning they were back slopped with a very fermented portion of the last batch, which increases ferment time exponentially and thus negating the need for a long time under water/very moistened to grow a good scoby throughout the mix.

I agree that the first batch and trying to catch an inoculate from the air, one should keep a pretty moist mix, though not necessarily completely under water.

used in cells as a coenzyme. It is often called the "molecular unit of currency" of intracellular energy transfer.[1] ATP transports chemical energy within cells for metabolism

Now, I'm no chemist, so I'm just gleaning info along the way but I think I'm getting a different understanding of what is anaerobic vs. aerobic and what those terms apply to, exactly, when it comes to fermentation.

 

[fosterson]

If I understand what I'm reading correctly, keeping the feed under water doesn't create an anaerobic state...water has an oxygen molecule so there really is no way to exclude oxygen from your mix in this manner. Anaerobic fermentation merely means that lactobacillus can make ATP(energy) without using oxygen, not that you have to deny it oxygen to get correct fermentation. These yeast spores live in the air, so their living and thriving do not depend on the exclusion of oxygen...they just have the ability to convert energy without needing oxygen to do so. They thrive equally well in oxygen rich~ or deficient~ settings.

Aerobic and anaerobic bacteria can be identified by growing them in test tubes of thioglycollate broth:
1: Obligate aerobes need oxygen because they cannot ferment or respire anaerobically. They gather at the top of the tube where the oxygen concentration is highest.
2: Obligate anaerobes are poisoned by oxygen, so they gather at the bottom of the tube where the oxygen concentration is lowest.
3: Facultative anaerobes can grow with or without oxygen because they can metabolise energy aerobically or anaerobically. They gather mostly at the top because aerobic respiration generates more ATP than either fermentation or anaerobic respiration.
4: Microaerophiles need oxygen because they cannot ferment or respire anaerobically. However, they are poisoned by high concentrations of oxygen. They gather in the upper part of the test tube but not the very top.
5: Aerotolerant organisms do not require oxygen as they metabolise energy anaerobically. Unlike obligate anaerobes however, they are not poisoned by oxygen. They can be found evenly spread throughout the test tube.

Had to drag out the ole biochemistry book for this one -- I think the more realistic answer is that the lactobacillus is a faculative anaerobe or even an aerotolerant germ -- the real trick is making a proper condition so the LB grow faster than the other stuff. If the mash is already innoculated with large amounts of LB, then it doesn't need AS anaerobic a condition as it does to get it started. That said, I just got mine 'damp', not 'soupy' the first time and things went just fine. I've never had mold or anything and I'm using the same 'batch' that I started with. I just add to it every day and stir it up good. The next morning it smells just as fermented as it did after the first 3 days.

 

[Trefoil]

That said- do you have any suggestions to help Pegm with the runny poop problem?

 

[Beekissed]

That said- do you have any suggestions to help Pegm with the runny poop problem?

Just the same as yours...make sure you are feeding fermented feed vs. just wet feed. Feed it less soupy so that they don't have to consume more water than they would normally just to eat the grain/feed. If you are feeding high proteins(25% and higher), it can most definitely cause diarrhea in animals. Just feed your feed and no snacks, treats, etc. until you get a handle on this poop problem. Add fiber to bulk up stools if nothing else is working...something like barley is nice for adding fiber.

 

[azygous]

Reporting back here on the soupy FF problem I was having, along with resulting soupy poops from the flock.

I believe the two-bucket method has the problem licked. I took one bucket and peppered the bottom with holes, and drilled a couple of rows of somewhat larger holes on the sides. I filled this bucket with the fermenting mash. Twelve hours later, there was no puddling of excess liquid in the mash, and it was much more the consistency that I have been wanting. As the batch was consumed, it became dryer than I liked, so I merely retrieved some liquid from the catch bucket and poured it over the mash to bring it to the desired moistness.

I've got a second batch going in a separate bucket. It's been fermenting for about three days now without the excess moisture being drained off. After I feed the last of the first batch tomorrow, I plan to transfer the new batch to the bucket with the holes, and start letting the excess moisture drain.

There's no doubt whatsoever that my feed is fermenting. It has a tangy odor that's a lot like the smell of wine. It's got the goods all right.

I believe the poops are becoming less soupy, too. Problems all seem under control!

 

[RoseMarie1]

Reporting back here on the soupy FF problem I was having, along with resulting soupy poops from the flock.

I believe the two-bucket method has the problem licked. I took one bucket and peppered the bottom with holes, and drilled a couple of rows of somewhat larger holes on the sides. I filled this bucket with the fermenting mash. Twelve hours later, there was no puddling of excess liquid in the mash, and it was much more the consistency that I have been wanting. As the batch was consumed, it became dryer than I liked, so I merely retrieved some liquid from the catch bucket and poured it over the mash to bring it to the desired moistness.

I've got a second batch going in a separate bucket. It's been fermenting for about three days now without the excess moisture being drained off. After I feed the last of the first batch tomorrow, I plan to transfer the new batch to the bucket with the holes, and start letting the excess moisture drain.

There's no doubt whatsoever that my feed is fermenting. It has a tangy odor that's a lot like the smell of wine. It's got the goods all right.

I believe the poops are becoming less soupy, too. Problems all seem under control!

I had soupy ff when I was using Layena feed. Soon as I stopped using that and started back using my other brand I stopped having soupy ff.