FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Beekissed]

Here is a question: water soluble vitamin supplements, should they be fermented?

This comes up for ducks, which need extra niacin, so we are advised to add some to the feed or water. If the niacin is added to the water it loses potency quickly, so the niacin water has to be refreshed often.

It makes me wonder about people using a Nutri-Balancer feed ... some feeds contain that ... and even wonder about the vitamin supplements that are added to "regular" feeds.

I use some Nutri-Balancer, but I add it just before feeding, not before fermenting ... what I want to ferment is the grains and legumes ...

What do you all think?

I think the fermentation of the grains increases niacin absorption so well from the grains that you shouldn't need a supplement.

Quote:
Quote:
http://gains.org.gh/articles/gjas_v4_2_p153_158.pdf

https://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ISTA8/ChhornLim.pdf

http://omicsonline.org/effect-of-germination-and-probiotic-fermentation-on-ph-titratable%20acidity-dietary-fibre-glucan-and-vitamin-content-of-sorghum-based%20food-mixtures-

2155-9600.1000164.pdf

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I agree, that matches the research I've dug up ... but only answers half the question.

I don't think I'm explaining this well.

I'm all for fermenting grains ... and normal poultry feeds. But I'm questioning the fermenting of added supplements, and also animal proteins.

So in my dream scenario of the perfect feed for my flock, I'd ferment the grains & legume proteins, but add any necessary vitamin supplements and animal proteins just before feeding.

This line of thought goes in the column of why I'm choosing not to use certain brands of feed ...

But of course it's just my uninformed and not-quite-fully-formed opinion ... just pondering ...

 

[Beekissed]

You know me....I'm all for simple. I'd just dump it all into the bucket, ferment it and feed it out.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You know me....I'm all for simple.  I'd just dump it all into the bucket, ferment it and feed it out. 

You wouldn't ever be adding expensive supplements to your feed in the first place. So you would never have to wonder if fermenting them was making them worthless ...

But you already have great forage ...

 

[Beekissed]

You wouldn't ever be adding expensive supplements to your feed in the first place. So you would never have to wonder if fermenting them was making them worthless ...

But you already have great forage ...

You are correct.

I just can't see myself buying expensive supplements, though I did once buy a 50 lb bag of kelp meal for $50...but the thing lasted me for 3 years when feeding it to sheep, cattle and even chickens. And I still had some left over to toss out when I moved.

I'm thinking if the fermentation increases the solubility of those vitamins in grains, it can only increase them when added to the feeds as well? Or is that simplifying it too much?

 

[kpgoldstar]

Boy, I am gone for 1/2 a day and miss 50+ posts!! I would have answered back on all of those questions regarding cleaning your bucket and starting anew every 5 days, the obvious over-use of ACV.... I'm glad my other FF veterans were here to set the record straight.

I have one bucket, the same bucket for over 6 months. I feed a very small flock and I make enough FF of each batch to feed out about 5 days. It is always sour smelling, never more or less no matter how long the bucket has been going. When I get low, anywhere from 1/2 cup to 2 cups left in my bucket I add new water and new dry food. I have never used ACV, to start a batch or to refresh my bucket. Simply feed and water works perfectly fine. I mix fairly wet when I refresh knowing that the water will be absorbed and I will end up with nice, fluffy, dryish FF to feed out for again the next 4-5 days.

The question about leaving dry feed out, I don't. My flock has not had dry feed since 2 weeks old. When we go out of town, we get a chicken sitter to come and feed FF daily. If I didn't have that resource I would do as Bee does if it were only for a couple days - feed enough at once the equivalent of that many days. If longer, I would let them have access to dry to get them by then switch them directly back to FF when I got home. For me, I own a business that I am a slave to so trips out of town are few.

On another note! My 4 pullets have been laying for about 6 weeks now. This is the 2nd time we've gotten a super-sized extra long egg!

I finally was able to stalk my girls last weekend so now I know that Snoop's egg is on the far right, Lemon's is the dark one next to hers. I couldn't catch a time between Leticia and Dottie laying and every day when I collect I have both of theirs together in the nest box. My guess is that Dottie's is on the left and it was Leticia that laid this monster!! Poor girl. I'm sure this one will be double yolked as there is a slight neck about 2/3 along the egg.

I just love having chickens! Every day is a new adventure.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You are correct.    I just can't see myself buying expensive supplements, though I did once buy a 50 lb bag of kelp meal for $50...but the thing lasted me for 3 years when feeding it to sheep, cattle and even chickens.  And I still had some left over to toss out when I moved. 

I'm thinking if the fermentation increases the solubility of those vitamins in grains, it can only increase them when added to the feeds as well?  Or is that simplifying it too much? 

Water soluble vitamin supplements dissipate when wet (wetness renders them useless rather quickly). Fermenting things makes them wet. So ...

I hesitate to bring that up because it sounds like I'm recommending not fermenting poultry feed. But I'm all for fermenting poultry feed. I'm just thinking fermenting certain supplements is a counter productive.

Related ... Last year I had been searching for a niacin supplement that could be added to duck feed instead of duck water, only partly because niacin is water soluble so putting it in water is counter productive at best and ducks waste SO much water. Now there is a duck supplement I've seen advertised to backyarders recently. It's Brewers Yeast. It has garlic in it. All the buzz words about garlic & yeast are used to promote this product. It isn't cheap. BUT ... Nutritional Yeast has 10x more niacin than Brewers Yeast. That one confuses me.

 

[subhanalah]

Water soluble vitamin supplements dissipate when wet (wetness renders them useless rather quickly). Fermenting things makes them wet. So ...

I hesitate to bring that up because it sounds like I'm recommending not fermenting poultry feed. But I'm all for fermenting poultry feed. I'm just thinking fermenting certain supplements is a counter productive.

Related ... Last year I had been searching for a niacin supplement that could be added to duck feed instead of duck water, only partly because niacin is water soluble so putting it in water is counter productive at best and ducks waste SO much water. Now there is a duck supplement I've seen advertised to backyarders recently. It's Brewers Yeast. It has garlic in it. All the buzz words about garlic & yeast are used to promote this product. It isn't cheap. BUT ... Nutritional Yeast has 10x more niacin than Brewers Yeast. That one confuses me.

Probably due to availability or that the higher dose of niacin would be too much for a ducks system?

To dose the brewers yeast, they sprinkle it on top of the food, how would you ensure that each duck isn't getting way too much with the more potent option? Do you think that could be it?

 

[Beekissed]

Water soluble vitamin supplements dissipate when wet (wetness renders them useless rather quickly). Fermenting things makes them wet. So ...

I hesitate to bring that up because it sounds like I'm recommending not fermenting poultry feed. But I'm all for fermenting poultry feed. I'm just thinking fermenting certain supplements is a counter productive.

Related ... Last year I had been searching for a niacin supplement that could be added to duck feed instead of duck water, only partly because niacin is water soluble so putting it in water is counter productive at best and ducks waste SO much water. Now there is a duck supplement I've seen advertised to backyarders recently. It's Brewers Yeast. It has garlic in it. All the buzz words about garlic & yeast are used to promote this product. It isn't cheap. BUT ... Nutritional Yeast has 10x more niacin than Brewers Yeast. That one confuses me.

That's a good point...but lets take a step back and try to see the forest behind the trees. If niacin is increased up to 7 fold in some grains by the simple process of fermentation, why would anyone even want to add expensive, difficult steps to the feeding process and complicate the whole thing needlessly by adding even more niacin? Why not just try the fermented feeds and watch the results on the birds and if you start to see symptoms of nutrient deficiency then take steps to correct them. If not, you are golden.

I think it all falls under the over thinking column heading. I know it feels like folks are just doing more by thinking harder but sometimes it's just counter productive to constantly theorize without trying some practical application and then weighing the results. Step 1. Ferment all the feed and see if it supplies their nutritional needs. Step 2. Evaluate the success or failure of this first step and proceed to Step 3 if the FF did not provide all necessary nutrients. Step 3. Buy expensive supplements and feed free choice, if possible.

A lot of these nutritional issues could be solved by investing the money that would have gone for expensive feeds and supplements into electronetting and ranging birds in paddocks so they can have a more natural feed available, thus maintaining their own nutrient balance better than we ever could. Takes the guess work out of it all, the investment would pay for itself over and over in various ways that just buying a bag of supplements won't do, and the birds will live naturally healthier lives.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

That's a good point...but lets take a step back and try to see the forest behind the trees.  If niacin is increased up to 7 fold in some grains by the simple process of fermentation, why would anyone even want to add expensive, difficult steps to the feeding process and complicate the whole thing needlessly by adding even more niacin?  Why not just try the fermented feeds and watch the results on the birds and if you start to see symptoms of nutrient deficiency then take steps to correct them.  If not, you are golden. 

I think it all falls under the over thinking column heading.  I know it feels like folks are just doing more by thinking harder but sometimes it's just counter productive to constantly theorize without trying some practical application and then weighing the results.  Step 1.  Ferment all the feed and see if it supplies their nutritional needs.   Step 2.  Evaluate the success or failure of this first step and proceed to Step 3 if the FF did not provide all necessary nutrients.  Step 3.  Buy expensive supplements and feed free choice, if possible. 

A lot of these nutritional issues could be solved by investing the money that would have gone for expensive feeds and supplements into electronetting and ranging birds in paddocks so they can have a more natural feed available, thus maintaining their own nutrient balance better than we ever could.  Takes the guess work out of it all, the investment would pay for itself over and over in various ways that just buying a bag of supplements won't do, and the birds will live naturally healthier lives. 

Some expensive feeds have the expensive supplements in them already.

I guess I'm not making my point very clearly ...