FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[mobius]

Sorry if my questions have already been answered but I'd like some further info and help when it comes to fermented feeds.

I currently have 5 laying hens and 12 new chicks. Currently hens are on layer pellets and chick are on chick crumbles. I'd love to start giving everyone fermented feed but I've seen and heard mixed "reviews" on it. I still have a few questions that I haven't gotten clear answers on.

1) Can I feed chicks (less then a week old) fermented feed?

2) Do you have to use special feeders or can I just add it into their gravity feeder they have now.

3) Can I make fermented feed out of store bought chick starter or layer pellets or is it best to make it out of plain grains?

I've received some pretty harsh feedback from other chicken people when I mention fermented feeds and it sounds like everyone here has some great knowledge to share!

I started feeding chicks fermented feed at that age. Here is a pic of the feeder I designed for the six chix:


I made this because otherwise the FF was everywhere and all over them. Obviously you would bend any prickly edges down into the container or cut them off...

Re: Chicks...use the chick starter, not the layer feed. I am also learning that layer feed has too little protein for most all chickens regardless.

BTW, everyone I am warming their fermented feed in the morning, in the microwave for about a minute since it is so cold here! Thoughts? It just gets slightly warm...would that kill the good stuff?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I think if you do a nutritional comparison, you'll find that the calorie content of your prepared feed is actually higher than the scratch. I'm thinking the whole theory about scratch/corn "warming the chickens up" is simply an old wives tale. I've done a search and can find no documented literature/studies that support the theory. I'd love to open this issue up to discussion without turning it into a he said she said argument. If any one can provide documented studies/nutritional analysis that supports the "myth" I'd love to see them. However, when I've added scratch to my feed, I find that it ferments with even more vigor. I think the scratch inoculates the mix with more bacteria and fungi. Simply don't put as much feed into your bucket.

I am actually thinking scratch warming is a myth as well. My reasoning is this...

1. feed is mostly corn anyways.
2. carbs digest faster than protein, so they might be warm for a short while but what about the rest of the night?
3. Their body temp will stay the same because it's regulated regardless of what they eat.
4. hunters give their dogs extra fat in the winter, not carbs. Because it's sustaining. Ever get hungry 1 hour after eating Chinese food?
5. Really the purpose is just to supply the animal with extra calories to support their metabolism as they use more energy to stay warm when it's cold.
6. My birds ALWAYS fill their crops before they go in at night anyways.
7. Fat and protein both will burn longer than carbs and have a higher calorie count, thus MORE energy released in a timed fashion instead of one short energy burst.

I would also love to see some studies. But with the nutritional and little health science understanding that I have, in no way will I be perpetuating the myth (any longer). When reasoned out, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Almost sounds like BOSS or live meal worms would be a better alternative to achieve the desired effect.

 

[mobius]

I am actually thinking scratch warming is a myth as well. My reasoning is this...

1. feed is mostly corn anyways.
2. carbs digest faster than protein, so they might be warm for a short while but what about the rest of the night?
3. Their body temp will stay the same because it's regulated regardless of what they eat.
4. hunters give their dogs extra fat in the winter, not carbs. Because it's sustaining. Ever get hungry 1 hour after eating Chinese food?
5. Really the purpose is just to supply the animal with extra calories to support their metabolism as they use more energy to stay warm when it's cold.
6. My birds ALWAYS fill their crops before they go in at night anyways.
7. Fat and protein both will burn longer than carbs and have a higher calorie count, thus MORE energy released in a timed fashion instead of one short energy burst.

I would also love to see some studies. But with the nutritional and little health science understanding that I have, in no way will I be perpetuating the myth (any longer). When reasoned out, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Almost sounds like BOSS or live meal worms would be a better alternative to achieve the desired effect.

Yep, thinking about this...I am also free feeding them homemade suet from a largish suet feeder...they are eating it to a point but not ravenous about it...so thank you for the thoughts about fat...

 

[Beekissed]

Sorry if my questions have already been answered but I'd like some further info and help when it comes to fermented feeds.

I currently have 5 laying hens and 12 new chicks. Currently hens are on layer pellets and chick are on chick crumbles. I'd love to start giving everyone fermented feed but I've seen and heard mixed "reviews" on it. I still have a few questions that I haven't gotten clear answers on.

1) Can I feed chicks (less then a week old) fermented feed?

2) Do you have to use special feeders or can I just add it into their gravity feeder they have now.

3) Can I make fermented feed out of store bought chick starter or layer pellets or is it best to make it out of plain grains?

I've received some pretty harsh feedback from other chicken people when I mention fermented feeds and it sounds like everyone here has some great knowledge to share!

There will always be folks out there who will try to scare you into doing things their way....that never changes. You've come to the right place!

Yes, chicks start best on FF and you'll see that in the rapidity of growth and feather development and also in the vigor and good health. We normally just adapt trough style feeders with a little fencing placed over the trough so they can't wade in the FF....it helps if you are using deep litter system in your brooder or coop so that any FF that does get on their feet is promptly knocked off in the bedding. They will find it there later and eat it. Gravity style feeders have so far not worked for FF, so most have turned to trough style of some kind or another.

You can make FF out of any kind of chicken feed.

Here's a great place for FAQ on fermented feed and about the only place that has any truth and real solid information on the practice: https://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/

 

[mobius]

There will always be folks out there who will try to scare you into doing things their way....that never changes. You've come to the right place!

Yes, chicks start best on FF and you'll see that in the rapidity of growth and feather development and also in the vigor and good health. We normally just adapt trough style feeders with a little fencing placed over the trough so they can't wade in the FF....it helps if you are using deep litter system in your brooder or coop so that any FF that does get on their feet is promptly knocked off in the bedding. They will find it there later and eat it. Gravity style feeders have so far not worked for FF, so most have turned to trough style of some kind or another.

You can make FF out of any kind of chicken feed.

Here's a great place for FAQ on fermented feed and about the only place that has any truth and real solid information on the practice: https://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/

Nice to get more validation @Beekissed ! My thinking about FF for the chicks was that I only get one chance at this when they are babies to help their systems develop in the very best of health!

 

[Beekissed]

I am actually thinking scratch warming is a myth as well. My reasoning is this...

1. feed is mostly corn anyways.
2. carbs digest faster than protein, so they might be warm for a short while but what about the rest of the night?
3. Their body temp will stay the same because it's regulated regardless of what they eat.
4. hunters give their dogs extra fat in the winter, not carbs. Because it's sustaining. Ever get hungry 1 hour after eating Chinese food?
5. Really the purpose is just to supply the animal with extra calories to support their metabolism as they use more energy to stay warm when it's cold.
6. My birds ALWAYS fill their crops before they go in at night anyways.
7. Fat and protein both will burn longer than carbs and have a higher calorie count, thus MORE energy released in a timed fashion instead of one short energy burst.

I would also love to see some studies. But with the nutritional and little health science understanding that I have, in no way will I be perpetuating the myth (any longer). When reasoned out, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Almost sounds like BOSS or live meal worms would be a better alternative to achieve the desired effect.

Great points and I've made them many a time!

Add to that list the fact that when a creature is digesting, a goodly portion of their blood supply is being diverted from the exterior of their body to the digestive tract....remember when Mom said not to go swimming after eating or you'll get muscle cramps...that's why and it's true. So, if they need that blood to warm their extremities but it's at the core, doing digestive work, how again does that "keep a chicken warm"?

Now, feed some scratch in the summer time....is that going to make them too hot? If it warms them up in the winter, doesn't it stand to reason it would make them WAY too hot in the summer?

 

[jennyf]

I'm new to chickens, but have heard for years that corn is a "hot" food for horses too. Got me thinking--found this as compared to oats, which is another typical chicken feed ingredient.

Corn has a variety of value in the equine diet but the primary reason it is added to feed is an energy source. It is one of the most energy-dense feeds; with a digestible energy value that is more than twice that of oats at a whopping 1.54 Mcal of digestible energy (DE) per pound.

Corn has high energy content per unit of weight and a high weight per unit volume. Therefore, feeding a volume of Corn thus provides a horse two to three times more energy than that same volume of oats. So attention to weight is necessary when feeding Corn. (Equinenutritionnerd.com)

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Great points and I've made them many a time!

Add to that list the fact that when a creature is digesting, a goodly portion of their blood supply is being diverted from the exterior of their body to the digestive tract....remember when Mom said not to go swimming after eating or you'll get muscle cramps...that's why and it's true. So, if they need that blood to warm their extremities but it's at the core, doing digestive work, how again does that "keep a chicken warm"?

Now, feed some scratch in the summer time....is that going to make them too hot? If it warms them up in the winter, doesn't it stand to reason it would make them WAY too hot in the summer?

My hubby, an RN for past 28 years, just said the same thing about blood flow being diverted to the digestive track.

However, I say myth about swimming as well... can't find actual studies right now, but a couple links..
http://www.livestrong.com/article/439311-sore-stomach-after-i-swim/
http://www.medicinenet.com/summer_debunking_summer_health_myths/views.htm
http://www.aarp.org/health/medical-research/info-04-2009/myth_buster__swimming.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/health/the-claim-never-swim-after-eating.html

What do you mean I'm just a big kid who wants to jump in the pool, right meow!

 

[Beekissed]

My hubby, an RN for past 28 years, just said the same thing about blood flow being diverted to the digestive track.

However, I say myth about swimming as well... can't find actual studies right now, but a couple links..
http://www.livestrong.com/article/439311-sore-stomach-after-i-swim/
http://www.medicinenet.com/summer_debunking_summer_health_myths/views.htm
http://www.aarp.org/health/medical-research/info-04-2009/myth_buster__swimming.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/health/the-claim-never-swim-after-eating.html

What do you mean I'm just a big kid who wants to jump in the pool, right meow!

Those studies can talk to my BIL....who almost drowned as a teen from a massive cramp from swimming after a big meal. Never did it again, never had the same results.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I'm new to chickens, but have heard for years that corn is a "hot" food for horses too. Got me thinking--found this as compared to oats, which is another typical chicken feed ingredient.

Corn has a variety of value in the equine diet but the primary reason it is added to feed is an energy source. It is one of the most energy-dense feeds; with a digestible energy value that is more than twice that of oats at a whopping 1.54 Mcal of digestible energy (DE) per pound.

Corn has high energy content per unit of weight and a high weight per unit volume. Therefore, feeding a volume of Corn thus provides a horse two to three times more energy than that same volume of oats. So attention to weight is necessary when feeding Corn. (Equinenutritionnerd.com)

oats would take longer to digest because they have more fiber than corn. So true the corn would digest faster.

But I don't know the protein needs of a horse and they only eat plants, so I'm not sure how exactly it can compare....

Yes, digestible energy is a good point though. Something I've been researching regarding different stages of sprouting and fodder development. And one of the main reasons we all love FF! It creates more digestible energy.