FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[niqueie]

Trying different feed brands can always be a good idea whether using FF or dry. That said, I can't imagine that one brand would cause a soupy mix and another not if using the same amount of water. Most feeds have a very similar blend of grains. I saved my analysis/ingredient labels from all the feeds I've bought. Looking at several of them now. They all start with ground corn, then in varying order they usually have soy, barley, oats, etc.. Some will have fish meal, porcine meal, alfalfa meal. After that, come the other nutrients - vitamins, minerals, additional proteins and fats. In spite of them being a varied blend, I can't imagine what would make one soupier than another.

I think the big variable is the age of the feed (processing date) and how finely ground the ingredients are.

My reply was a bit vague. I meant that the different brands ff was makeing the poops more solid versus softer/runny. Not necessarily the FF consistency itself. Although, there is a bit differing textures there too, but not much like you say.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

There's an amazing variety of equipment used in mills in the form of hammer mills, grinders and various size screens so there will be particle size differences from mill to mill and even batch to batch if there's an equipment change between batches.

 

[Beekissed]

Yep...the more fine the particle size, the more moisture it's going to hold and the more sticky the mix. My layer mash has some fine particle but more coarse cut grains that absorb the fluid but not as much as if they were more finely ground. I find that crumbles holds a ton of moisture and whole grains have to be strained because they just sit in the fluid without absorbing too much of it and the mash is just right~as Goldielocks would say~because it has fine particle and coarse ground and even some whole grains it absorbs quite a bit of fluid but it's not sopping wet mush.

Try getting a mash at the feed store instead of a pellet and crumble and see if it doesn't help you get a more steady consistency on your feed...and the poop. If you can't get a mash, try adding whole grains to your feeds to get a mix of absorption levels that can even out your mix and make it easier on you.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Yep...the more fine the particle size, the more moisture it's going to hold and the more sticky the mix. My layer mash has some fine particle but more coarse cut grains that absorb the fluid but not as much as if they were more finely ground. I find that crumbles holds a ton of moisture and whole grains have to be strained because they just sit in the fluid without absorbing too much of it and the mash is just right~as Goldielocks would say~because it has fine particle and coarse ground and even some whole grains it absorbs quite a bit of fluid but it's not sopping wet mush.

Try getting a mash at the feed store instead of a pellet and crumble and see if it doesn't help you get a more steady consistency on your feed...and the poop. If you can't get a mash, try adding whole grains to your feeds to get a mix of absorption levels that can even out your mix and make it easier on you.

I've also read that further processing the mash into pellets decreases the nutrition of the ration.

Further processing of the mash into pellets makes the pellets cost more.

One drawback of mash is that dry mash can cause problems with the "mouth" of the bird ... the dry powdery particles can get stuck to the beak and cause ulcers and stuff. Obviously moistening or fermenting the mash eliminates this problem, though "sticky" feed can also be an issue.

I like pellets because there is SO much less waste (when fed dry, from a hopper ... and even the design of the hopper is important for reducing waste).

But when making FF it is probably best to start with mash ... (I'm still using pellets ...

)

 

[perchie.girl]

For what its worth Read the labels on your feed bags. The find print after the nutritional value. Extruded or pelleted feed often times has molasis to bind it. Now this is not an item that has sugar in it. It is the by product of the sugar industry. Its been used as a feed supplement for livestock for at least a century.

Back when I started out with horses in 1967 my stable owner kept a gallon can of Molassis as a top dressing for picky eaters. It smells great and I am in the habit of tasting every feed I have ever fed.... with the exception of Canned dog food. This is bitter and very very strong molasis flavor Without sugar taste at all.

Pelleted feed is created by running the loose feed through an extruder much like a caulking gun with lots of holes in it. As the feed reaches the length to make a pellet a Cutter swings by and slices it off. Extruding feed this way creates heat which is enough to solidify the pellets and if they do it right the drop to the conveyor will be long enough for it to dry or cure. They may heat it a little to take the rest of the moisture out but I suspect its not that complicated.

deb

 

[Beekissed]

More info about feed grade molasses additive in livestock feeds: http://www.feedipedia.org/node/561

has described the different molasses as follows:

• Integral high-test molasses is produced from unclarified sugarcane juice. Because it is concentrated from unclarified sugarcane juice, heavy incrustations and scum deposits lead to frequent mill interruptions and therefore to increased factory maintenance costs.
• High-test molasses is basically the same as integral high-test molasses. Howere it does not raise manufactory concern as integral high-test does.
• A molasses (first molasses) is an intermediate byproduct resulting from first sugar crystal extraction (A sugar) at raw sugar factory. A molasses contains 80-85% DM. If it has to be stored, it should be inverted in order to prevent crystallization.
• B molasses (second molasses). It has approximately the same DM content as A molasses but contains less sugar and does not crystallize spontaneously.
• C molasses (final molasses, blackstrap molasses, treacle) is the end product at raw sugar factory level. It still contains considerable amounts of sucrose (approximately 32 to 42%). C molasses does not crystallize and can be found in liquid or dried form as a commercial feed ingredient.
• Syrup-off (liquor-off, jett) is the end product from the centrifugation of the final refined masecuite in a raw sugar refinery. Normally, syrup-off is sent to the raw sugar section of the refinery where it is reprocessed in order to recover more sucrose. Due to its high content of sucrose (90-92% DM), it is an excellent energy source for monogastrics but can be an expensive.
• Refinery final molasses is the byproduct of refined sugar extraction. It has a very similar composition to that of C molasses produced in a raw sugar factory and it is stored in the same tanks.
• In some countries the juice is extracted in a simple animal or mechanical driven press, then boiled in open vats. In this rudimentary process, pan (uncrystallized) sugar is produced and the byproduct molasses is called "melote". It contains only 50% DM.

Sugarcane molasses are also used for alcohol (rhum or fuel ethanol) production and the distillery process yields vinasses that can also be used in animal feeding.
Approximately 3 to 7 tons of molasses can be produced from 100 tons of fresh sugar cane (Pérez, 1997). Molasses composition varies highly and depends on cane varieties, climate and processes (Pérez, 1995). Approximately 60 countries produce sucrose from sugarcane (Pérez, 1995).
It should be noted that the type of molasses is rarely mentioned when molasses are traded or when their feed value is investigated.
Utilization

Sugarcane molasses has several important roles in livestock feeding, due to the nutritive, appetizing and physical properties of its sugar content. Molasses is rather difficult to handle because of its viscosity: it is rarely fed directly in its liquid form but instead mixed to other ingredients (Caldwell, 2001).
Binding agent, anti-dust agent and palatability enhancer

The main use of cane molasses is as a binding agent in feed mills. Molasses allows the feed granules to stick together during the pelleting process and produce pellets that are less likely to break down during transportation and passage through feeding equipment (Blair, 2007). Molasses also reduces dustiness in fine-particled feeds. Due to its sucrose content, it improves the palatability of feeds and can even mask the bitter taste of urea (Blair, 2007). The amount used in dry feeds is usually small, lower than 15% DM and usually in the 2-5% range (Blair, 2007; Fuller, 2004).
Silage additive

Molasses is a valuable additive for silage making when ensiling conditions are difficult or when the forage is a poor quality grass (warm-season grass) or a legume. Molasses provides readily fermentescible energy that promotes lactic acid bacteria development and subsequently reduces pH and improve silage quality. However, molasses may not be helpful when silage is made with maize, sorghum or cool-season grasses since they already contain high amounts of energy and adding molasses might result in detrimental yeast development (Adesogan et al., 2010; Sansoucy, 1991). Molasses can be added to grass at about 5% (Fuller, 2004).
Urea carrier

Molasses, in either liquid or solid form, is often used as a carrier for urea and other additives (Pérez, 1995). Its can be combined with urea, minerals and vitamins to make solids bricks called molasses-urea blocks or multi-nutrient blocks, for inistance to supplement low quality diets (see the Molasses/urea blocks datasheet) (Forsberg et al., 2002).
Energy source

Molasses can be used as an energy source for livestock, particularly in situations where grains are unavailable or too expensive (Chaudhary et al., 2001). This utilization is common for ruminants, but also occurs in pigs and poultry. Certain countries, like Cuba, have developed feeding systems where molasses has a central part. In ruminants, molasses is fed as a supplement to poor quality roughage, during droughts for instance. It can also be mixed with rice bran, oil meals or with non-protein N (urea for instance) in order to enhance rumen activity (Chaudhary et al., 2001; Bedingar et al., 1990; Rana et al., 1982). During the 1983-1985 famine in Ethiopia, molasses was been used as an emergency feed for the survival of reeding cattle (Menbere, 1986).
Other uses

In the tropics, molasses is also used in combination with other ingredients, such as roughages, poultry litter or animal by-products. For instance, fresh fish, fish offal and snails can be preserved by mixing 50:50 with final molasses, then fed with B molasses to pigs, ducks and geese (Pérez, 1995).

Distribution
The world production of sugarcane and beet molasses was 60 million t in 2007 (FAO statistics do not differentiate between both origins). The main producers were Brazil, India, China, Thailand, United States, Pakistan, Mexico, Indonesia, Australia and Russian Federation (FAO, 2011). 15 of those producers were located in tropical areas and accounted for 44 million t which can be assumed to be sugarcane molasses. In 2007, 15.9 million t molasses (from sugar cane and sugar beet) were used to feed livestock. The main users were the United States (1.9 million t), China (1.8 million t), Brazil (1.3 million t), Indonesia, Argentina, India, Mexico, Vietnam, Australia and Iran (FAO, 2011).
Potential constraints
Neurological disorders

Molasses fed in large amounts is toxic to livestock (Pérez, 1995; Dunlop et al., 1979). The symptoms of molasses toxicity are reduced body temperatures, weakness (animals have difficulty standing up), rapid breathing and even blindness (Pérez, 1995; Preston, 1986). Molasses seems to cause brain damage when fed at high levels and with low roughage inclusion. These damages might be due to a lack of thiamine, protein and energy available at the brain level (Preston, 1986; Rowe et al., 1977). However, providing thiamine proved to be ineffective in animals which were suffering from molasses toxicity (Blair, 2011). An economical remedy is to provide adequate quantity of high protein content roughage (such as leucaena or gliricidia) (Preston, 1986). Another remedy is to immediately give animals a solution that is rich in phosphorus and sodium, and to take the animals off molasses feeding for a few days (Pérez, 1995). Molasses toxicity can be caused by a scarcity of drinking water or a too rapid switch-over to high molasses diet, so a close access to water and progressive adapation are necessary (Pérez, 1995).

 

[Beekissed]

I've also read that further processing the mash into pellets decreases the nutrition of the ration.

Further processing of the mash into pellets makes the pellets cost more.

One drawback of mash is that dry mash can cause problems with the "mouth" of the bird ... the dry powdery particles can get stuck to the beak and cause ulcers and stuff. Obviously moistening or fermenting the mash eliminates this problem, though "sticky" feed can also be an issue.

I like pellets because there is SO much less waste (when fed dry, from a hopper ... and even the design of the hopper is important for reducing waste).

But when making FF it is probably best to start with mash ... (I'm still using pellets ...

)

I've always used mash and never had any problems with mouth issues or waste. I feed in a trough, so when I fed dry I covered it with wire fencing so they couldn't climb in and scratch, flick or shovel the feed...just reach in and eat. Zero waste. Now that I feed it wet, I don't even bother to put a wire topper on the trough. My troughs could hold up to 5 days worth of feed back when I was feeding dry but I'm using smaller troughs now...but the wet feed keeps it from overflowing the trough when it's full to the level, so I can still load up to 3-4 days worth of feed in the trough if need be.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I've always used mash and never had any problems with mouth issues or waste. I feed in a trough, so when I fed dry I covered it with wire fencing so they couldn't climb in and scratch, flick or shovel the feed...just reach in and eat. Zero waste. Now that I feed it wet, I don't even bother to put a wire topper on the trough. My troughs could hold up to 5 days worth of feed back when I was feeding dry but I'm using smaller troughs now...but the wet feed keeps it from overflowing the trough when it's full to the level, so I can still load up to 3-4 days worth of feed in the trough if need be.

I gather the problems with the ulcers in the mouth/nose were because the birds didn't drink enough after eating ... most certainly a problem more for the confinement operations where birds are so crowded and stressed. I know how it feels to be penned against the buffet table and unable to access the bar at corporate functions.

I think the troughs as you describe are an awesome solution to the feed waste thing.

 

[Beekissed]

I gather the problems with the ulcers in the mouth/nose were because the birds didn't drink enough after eating ... most certainly a problem more for the confinement operations where birds are so crowded and stressed. I know how it feels to be penned against the buffet table and unable to access the bar at corporate functions.

I think the troughs as you describe are an awesome solution to the feed waste thing.

That makes sense, LJ! Plus the fact that the battery hens don't really have anything else to do but lay and eat, it would stand to reason they are eating a lot of their time. My birds only got their mash in meals(one per day) and it was only a small part of their daily ration of otherwise foraged feeds. I'd say birds that were used to crunching and swallowing the hard shells of bugs and eating grass blades would find the particles of mash to be a walk in the park.

 

[kpgoldstar]

Hmm. I've always used crumbles. Are the majority of you folks using pellets who are graced with "fluffy" FF and poops that can be "swept" away? Perhaps that is the critical distinction?

Mine is chick starter crumbles and I am graced with "fluffy" FF and nearly all solid poops that in my dry climate can be swept within a day of being dropped.