FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[chickengirl1193]

No, I never worry about calcium for young birds.  Mine go out on free range to forage at 2 wks and consume bugs and plant matter that has greater than 10 % calcium where as layer feed only has 3-4 % calcium.  I'm doubting the layer feed has any detrimental effects on my chicks at that point....been using it for layer chicks and for CX for a long time now.  My 6 yr old birds had 100% layer ration from day one, no chick starter at all.  The CX really need the extra calcium anyway as their bones are growing quickly and they are putting on weight even more quickly. 

All those different feeds are always a hassle and by now you can probably tell I don't like complicated or hassle, so I go the simplest route.  All my feed is fermented in the same bucket so my adult birds have been consuming chick starter with their layer ration and my chicks have been consuming layer ration in their chick starter. 

 I never have illness in my flocks and my birds live long, healthy, productive lives....I don't really give much credence to all the dos and don'ts of feeding chickens that one finds in books and on these forums.  My way is simpler and it works, so I just keep doing it! 

Okay thank you! So ill just do half starter half layer and see how they do!
The way I have decided to raise my birds is to do my research, hear everyone's opinions, and then start trying things and if my birds are doing well then just keep it the way it is. I like simplicity. Especially because my mom helps me(when im in class or work) and she knows zero about chickens so when I just have one container of food and no special supplements or anything I can just say give them a scoop out of the white bucket and know they are getting exactly what they need.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I wouldn't worry about excess dietary calcium in meat birds since they're not going to live long enough to worry about visceral gout, urolithiasis, kidney or other organ damage.

That said, when other poultry are affected by excess calcium, they just die and the cause is often not determined by a cursory necropsy.

http://nhjy.hzau.edu.cn/kech/synkx/dong/2bao/UrolithiasisChina.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20434855 .
Mortality of male broiler breeders is nearly 4 times that of hens attributed to excess dietary calcium.
http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin1947.pdf

Commercial egg producers try to wait till seven to ten days prior to the oviposition of the first egg to start a prelay ration with increased levels of calcium.
In the past, if they increased too early, they would suffer losses to their pullet flocks.
After a lot of research, they found that adding an acidifier to the feed would alleviate the problem in case their lighting program didn't stimulate lay at the right time.
My assumption is that adding ACV to water may serve the same purpose.
It's also been found that some breeds and strains of chickens are more tolerant of excessive dietary calcium.

As for forage supplying higher levels of calcium. That depends on what is being consumed but studies don't show it to be true.
http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm
"As expected, insects contain little calcium and high levels of phosphorus. While most wild-caught insects also appear to be low in calcium, in general, the values are somewhat higher than those reported for captive-raised insects. High calcium levels have been reported in only a few species of insects. Insects that have been shown to contain substantial quantities of calcium include stoneflies (1.15% dry matter basis), housefly pupa, Musca domestica (0.93% dry matter basis), from larvae raised in poultry manure containing 5.1% calcium, and the previously mentioned Musca autumnalis puparia."

Studies of insects raised for feeding insectivores, most were found to be deficient in calcium for the health of the reptiles and other zoo species.
http://www.timberlinefisheries.com/...content of four species of feeder insects.pdf

I remember when raising lizards and turtles, it was necessary to dust crickets with calcium powder otherwise they would have bone density issues.

As for green forage crops, they usually contain 0.5-1.5 % Ca and not all of that is bio-available.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/dairy/feed-and-nutrition/minerals-in-forages.pdf

A 5 year study of forage indicated an average Ca content of under 1%.
http://mbfc.s3.amazonaws.com/2008_fact_sheets/p_forage_quality_final_june_26_08_p.pdf

I'd be interested to find what the forage source is that contains 10% calcium.

ETA
The best analogy I can give is the difference between occupational injury and occupational disease. If one falls off a ladder or scaffolding or get crushed in a machine, they will suffer broken bones or worse. The effect is immediate and they're sure what the cause was. That's occupational injury.
Occupational disease is something like mesothelioma from asbestos or cancer from chemical exposure - especially MEKs and PCBs. The injury is immediate but the pain and disease can come years later. People just get sick and don't equate that to the jobs they no longer work at, but the pain and disease is nonetheless from that exposure years ago.
The same goes for processed food. People don't know that aspartame may be killing them because the snack or diet soft drink tastes good and they don't immediately feel discomfort. They're still being poisoned, nonetheless.
A raccoon attack is immediate, Marek's and AI are pretty quick. Nutritional disorders are much slower, but they're there nonetheless. A poultry diet can be low in vitamin E, D or selenium and the chickens won't die immediately but they may do so prematurely.
People can feed layer to roosters for 4 years and they show no effects. Then they just die and they never know that they've slowly been overdosing calcium.
A lot of people don't worry about it. I never used to worry about it. But after reading the latest research and knowing the damage it does, I worry now and take measures so that I don't prematurely lose rare breeders to something I can prevent.
For those that have common breeds, their management would surely be different.
There's a big difference between anecdotal evidence and science.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

It's fine to have everyone on a starter or grower or higher protein all-purpose poultry ration with the calcium on the side. That's an easy system to maintain.

From the stuff I've read, it seems higher calcium diets are more stressful to the birds than higher protein diets ... though people warn about both. That's in test situations, with mostly confined birds getting controlled rations.

For calcium, a factor for some people is the water. I was following a thread for a while where lots of calcium in the water seemed to be the cause of multiple deaths for otherwise healthy-looking young birds ...

 

[ChickenCanoe]

It's fine to have everyone on a starter or grower or higher protein all-purpose poultry ration with the calcium on the side. That's an easy system to maintain.

...

Basically what I've been doing. Rather than have 7 different feeds, like I used to. I have a relatively inexpensive 16% organic grower that everyone gets. Add in a predetermined ratio of 60% fishmeal for young birds, molters and breeders.
For finishing laying pullets or bachelor roosters, I lower the protein with a little more grain. This is seasonally dependent too. In the winter, it's pretty easy to know their exact nutrient intake.
I also find that when not feeding layer feed, it's especially important to have 2 containers of oyster shell in each coop/run. I keep one near the feed, the other is next to the nest boxes. Never want them to run out if not feeding layer feed. At least that's my method. As the saying goes - 'your results may vary'.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Basically what I've been doing. Rather than have 7 different feeds, like I used to. I have a relatively inexpensive 16% organic grower that everyone gets. Add in a predetermined ratio of 60% fishmeal for young birds, molters and breeders.
For finishing laying pullets or bachelor roosters, I lower the protein with a little more grain. This is seasonally dependent too. In the winter, it's pretty easy to know their exact nutrient intake.
I also find that when not feeding layer feed, it's especially important to have 2 containers of oyster shell in each coop/run. I keep one near the feed, the other is next to the nest boxes. Never want them to run out if not feeding layer feed. At least that's my method. As the saying goes - 'your results may vary'.

Agreed. I think multiple access points for feeds and water and supplements is a good idea.

We have one of the oyster shell feeders by the door out to the run ... the hens like to stop there for some on their way back into the coop.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I read some research that shows the hens tend to pick up the oyster shell when the egg enters the shell gland, that is usually the afternoon.

ETA
It also discusses how oyster shell is superior to that in layer feed in that the large particle size tends to stay in the digestive tract longer, making contact with the calcium absorption sites in the small intestine. The egg is usually in the shell gland at night when the hen is roosting and not eating. That large particle calcium source can quickly be utilized to replenish medullary bone being used to form the shell.

http://www.nutrecocanada.com/docs/s...-formation-and-eggshell-quality-in-layers.pdf

 

[Tumbleweed Farm]

I read some research that shows the hens tend to pick up the oyster shell when the egg enters the shell gland, that is usually the afternoon.

ETA
It also discusses how oyster shell is superior to that in layer feed in that the large particle size tends to stay in the digestive tract longer, making contact with the calcium absorption sites in the small intestine. The egg is usually in the shell gland at night when the hen is roosting and not eating. That large particle calcium source can quickly be utilized to replenish medullary bone being used to form the shell.

http://www.nutrecocanada.com/docs/s...-formation-and-eggshell-quality-in-layers.pdf

 

[beverly evans]

Quote: Su, What kind of dog do you have? My big pit bull would eat out of the ff chicken feed any chance he got, until I taught him otherwise , so they like the taste. He has no skin issues or digestion ones, but if it is so much better for the hens why notmy dog too? I'll watch what you report before I put another green 5 gallon bucket in my kitchen, especially one that smells bad. : )

 

[subhanalah]

I wouldn't worry about excess dietary calcium in meat birds since they're not going to live long enough to worry about visceral gout, urolithiasis, kidney or other organ damage.

That said, when other poultry are affected by excess calcium, they just die and the cause is often not determined by a cursory necropsy.

http://nhjy.hzau.edu.cn/kech/synkx/dong/2bao/UrolithiasisChina.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20434855 .
Mortality of male broiler breeders is nearly 4 times that of hens attributed to excess dietary calcium.
http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin1947.pdf

Commercial egg producers try to wait till seven to ten days prior to the oviposition of the first egg to start a prelay ration with increased levels of calcium.
In the past, if they increased too early, they would suffer losses to their pullet flocks.
After a lot of research, they found that adding an acidifier to the feed would alleviate the problem in case their lighting program didn't stimulate lay at the right time.
My assumption is that adding ACV to water may serve the same purpose.
It's also been found that some breeds and strains of chickens are more tolerant of excessive dietary calcium.

As for forage supplying higher levels of calcium. That depends on what is being consumed but studies don't show it to be true.
http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm
"As expected, insects contain little calcium and high levels of phosphorus. While most wild-caught insects also appear to be low in calcium, in general, the values are somewhat higher than those reported for captive-raised insects. High calcium levels have been reported in only a few species of insects. Insects that have been shown to contain substantial quantities of calcium include stoneflies (1.15% dry matter basis), housefly pupa, Musca domestica (0.93% dry matter basis), from larvae raised in poultry manure containing 5.1% calcium, and the previously mentioned Musca autumnalis puparia."

Studies of insects raised for feeding insectivores, most were found to be deficient in calcium for the health of the reptiles and other zoo species.
http://www.timberlinefisheries.com/...content of four species of feeder insects.pdf

I remember when raising lizards and turtles, it was necessary to dust crickets with calcium powder otherwise they would have bone density issues.

As for green forage crops, they usually contain 0.5-1.5 % Ca and not all of that is bio-available.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/dairy/feed-and-nutrition/minerals-in-forages.pdf

A 5 year study of forage indicated an average Ca content of under 1%.
http://mbfc.s3.amazonaws.com/2008_fact_sheets/p_forage_quality_final_june_26_08_p.pdf

I'd be interested to find what the forage source is that contains 10% calcium.

ETA
The best analogy I can give is the difference between occupational injury and occupational disease. If one falls off a ladder or scaffolding or get crushed in a machine, they will suffer broken bones or worse. The effect is immediate and they're sure what the cause was. That's occupational injury.
Occupational disease is something like mesothelioma from asbestos or cancer from chemical exposure - especially MEKs and PCBs. The injury is immediate but the pain and disease can come years later. People just get sick and don't equate that to the jobs they no longer work at, but the pain and disease is nonetheless from that exposure years ago.
The same goes for processed food. People don't know that aspartame may be killing them because the snack or diet soft drink tastes good and they don't immediately feel discomfort. They're still being poisoned, nonetheless.
A raccoon attack is immediate, Marek's and AI are pretty quick. Nutritional disorders are much slower, but they're there nonetheless. A poultry diet can be low in vitamin E, D or selenium and the chickens won't die immediately but they may do so prematurely.
People can feed layer to roosters for 4 years and they show no effects. Then they just die and they never know that they've slowly been overdosing calcium.
A lot of people don't worry about it. I never used to worry about it. But after reading the latest research and knowing the damage it does, I worry now and take measures so that I don't prematurely lose rare breeders to something I can prevent.
For those that have common breeds, their management would surely be different.
There's a big difference between anecdotal evidence and science.

This reminds me of a woman who refused to put her child in a car seat! She said "my mom never put me in one and I never got hurt" just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't prove that it will never happen.

Su,  What kind of dog do you have?  My big pit bull would eat out of the ff chicken feed any chance he got, until I taught him otherwise , so they like the taste.  He has no skin issues or digestion ones, but if it is so much better for the hens why notmy dog too?  I'll watch what you report before I put another green 5 gallon bucket in my kitchen, especially one that smells bad.   : )

My dogs eat the chicken feed too, but they were eating the dry stuff too!
I have mixed breed dogs I love them!

 

[RichnSteph]

Another FF convert.

My grandmother has chickens and she was complaining about the amount of feed they waste. She started out doing the traditional "here chick chick chick" and throwing the feed on the ground. I convinced her to at least put it in a dish of some kind and in so doing she started saving a little more feed but the darn chickens scratch most of it out of the pan. Since her chickens free range on a wooded acre she decided just to feed them once in the morning and once at night with FF. I fermented some two weeks ago and the first time I put some out they devoured it, same thing that evening. We anticipate a large cut in feed costs.

Once I get my own flock up and laying we'll be using the same method for feeding.