FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Beekissed]

I agree with that. I really inspect many parts inside my chickens....always have ever since I was 10 and butchered my first one. I open the small intestines to look at the villi, check for parasites, look at the mucosa for any thickening, changes or any off colors. I open the heart and look at the valves and inspect the size of the chambers, I inspect the livers for color and texture, the gizzard is opened and the ruggae~or lack thereof~is noted, the crop is inspected for size, texture and tonicity, the lungs are inspected for color, any spots, clots, etc, and the reproductive system is inspected closely for any disease or genetic deformity.

I especially inspect these on birds culled for poor appearance, lack of lay even though they are the right age to be laying well, or birds that have just fallen off the roost dead one night even though they were hale and hearty every day up until then. I think it's important for everyone to cull and to inspect what they cull, but especially inspect those that were culled by nature....those are the ones you need to watch and inspect for any root cause.

 

[jbkirk]

I think Kassaundra has been doing it the longest here on BYC and I've not met or read of anyone doing it in the private sector that was doing it at all until we opened these two threads on it.

As for the article, you need to read very closely....there were many qualifiers that contributed to health problems in those cultures and diets and not just fermented foods or lactic acid. There have been far, far, far too many studies done that contradict his theory. And, yes, it's just speculation and inference unless there are specific sources cited and one can read those studies firsthand and see if there were other contributing factors that could cause such things besides the consumption of lactic acid.

Like this paragraph...just including it seems like it supports his hypothesis, but read the whole thing and you will find there were many, many mitigating factors that caused these people's problems and lactic acid wasn't one of them. I'll highlight in blue the words to watch for when someone is building a case on circumstantial evidence....


A person could do this all day long with an article such as this one, but you get the point....the man or whoever wrote the article has taken vague "facts" and worded it in such a way as to place fermented or preserved foods as the deciding factor in all these poor outcomes and risks but if you read more closely you find there are several mitigating factors and the author has cleverly used phrasing to suggest otherwise by pinpointing and focusing on the words "fermented", "preserved", and "lactic acid".

I wouldn't get too wound up over one article by one doctor or someone getting scared over what one doctor has said. If the LABs were causing an inflammatory response in these chickens we would know it by now...their lives are much shorter than ours, their metabolic rate much higher, so any disease process or inflammatory response is much quicker and will have its "long term affects" in a much shorter time than what we consider long term. I think anyone even using them for a year or more on the same chickens would have already seen these changes and inflammatory responses or a rise in cancer in their flocks by now if that was going to be an issue.

The additional benefits have already been documented by many for the past couple of years, the losses? I've not heard of any that could be contributed solely to the FF yet. Who knows? We could see long term changes in the flocks with a decrease in lay over time or decrease in fertility, etc. but we've seen nothing yet.

Never fear....I'm watching for any changes over time as well that I would consider being contributed towards the FF. I'm not so stuck in a groove that I can't be objective over it...that's the nature of an experiment and one never stops weighing the benefits and merits of any one method if they have any smarts about them.

It also said nutrition deficiency's and I think that this is a plus in fermenting!!!

 

[CashandTracy]

I have a question for the FF experts here.

I have a bucket of FF that has been sitting for about 2 weeks. I haven't done anything with it because of work demands. There is a layer of water over the feed, with the usual "fuzz" that grows on my FF. The "fuzz" is not really fuzzy like mold, it's more like a layer of cloth on top. It can be easily removed with a spoon. This fuzz has always grown on my FF. The feed under the water looks good and does not smell bad.

Should I throw it out or is it okay to feed?

Thank you!

 

[Beekissed]

It's okay...that's just yeast growth. I wouldn't worry about it and I'd feed as per regularly.

 

[Tikkijane]

Before you flame me to hell, i know this pertains to humans BUT it is something to very carefully consider. This isn't just speculation, it has been documented.

I do FF but i want to carefully examine all the facts and i'm wondering if anyone has FF their flock LONG TERM and seen any additional benefit or loss??

http://blog.arkofwellness.com/fermented-food-a-no-go/

What do you consider long time?

I'm not sure I buy this, personally. To begin with, she can't even spell kombucha right. Someone who pushes a single resource? No.

And that soy test? There have long been real concerns with soy that are trying to make the light of day. Those have nothing to do with fermentation.

Given the worldwide fermentation and the HEALTH of those folks, I call baloney on this. Since I see Bee has gone line by line, I won't.

 

[LindaB220]

I think Kassaundra has been doing it the longest here on BYC and I've not met or read of anyone doing it in the private sector that was doing it at all until we opened these two threads on it.

As for the article, you need to read very closely....there were many qualifiers that contributed to health problems in those cultures and diets and not just fermented foods or lactic acid. There have been far, far, far too many studies done that contradict his theory. And, yes, it's just speculation and inference unless there are specific sources cited and one can read those studies firsthand and see if there were other contributing factors that could cause such things besides the consumption of lactic acid.

Like this paragraph...just including it seems like it supports his hypothesis, but read the whole thing and you will find there were many, many mitigating factors that caused these people's problems and lactic acid wasn't one of them. I'll highlight in blue the words to watch for when someone is building a case on circumstantial evidence....


A person could do this all day long with an article such as this one, but you get the point....the man or whoever wrote the article has taken vague "facts" and worded it in such a way as to place fermented or preserved foods as the deciding factor in all these poor outcomes and risks but if you read more closely you find there are several mitigating factors and the author has cleverly used phrasing to suggest otherwise by pinpointing and focusing on the words "fermented", "preserved", and "lactic acid".

I wouldn't get too wound up over one article by one doctor or someone getting scared over what one doctor has said. If the LABs were causing an inflammatory response in these chickens we would know it by now...their lives are much shorter than ours, their metabolic rate much higher, so any disease process or inflammatory response is much quicker and will have its "long term affects" in a much shorter time than what we consider long term. I think anyone even using them for a year or more on the same chickens would have already seen these changes and inflammatory responses or a rise in cancer in their flocks by now if that was going to be an issue.

The additional benefits have already been documented by many for the past couple of years, the losses? I've not heard of any that could be contributed solely to the FF yet. Who knows? We could see long term changes in the flocks with a decrease in lay over time or decrease in fertility, etc. but we've seen nothing yet.

Never fear....I'm watching for any changes over time as well that I would consider being contributed towards the FF. I'm not so stuck in a groove that I can't be objective over it...that's the nature of an experiment and one never stops weighing the benefits and merits of any one method if they have any smarts about them.

Not to change the fact that people worldwide have been eating fermented foods for thousands of years. Not vinegar. Fermented.

 

[Beekissed]

Think of the motives of such an article and it will all become clear. For one, there is a push for population control going on by the powers that move things behind the puppets who speak. Healthier foods are just not on their agenda for the general populace...they wish us to die. Then the mention of a doctor. Doctors used to be people who got into that profession to heal people and help the community stay healthy, but now they are in it for money....pure and simple. If people are healthier, profits dive. Even if just a few people are healthier and tell a few others and those few tell others, it could start a wave....much like our fermented feed wave has started articles~and trolling on the FF threads, I might add~ from those on the payroll of feed companies to try and scare people off feeding this to their flocks. A decrease in feed consumption????? That means less sales!!!!!

Don't think it isn't happening, folks, and I'm not a bit crazy. I called the bluff on just such a person on the other FF thread and it was obvious I had hit the mark as they just went silent. But he'll be back when he thinks we've forgotten, to try and start a new group of newbies into a panic over feeding "moldy" feeds.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the feed companies are starting to add "probiotics" to their feeds now to try and compete. They weren't there before and they are there now....and you think they don't monitor the biggest poultry site on the internet? Of course they do...this is their target market. Just like when they started increasing protein percentages in laying rations when they noticed people were trying to mix their own feeds to increase proteins in an attempt to get more eggs. It's all market research and development.

As always, follow the money.

 

[vpatt]

Think of the motives of such an article and it will all become clear.  For one, there is a push for population control going on by the powers that move things behind the puppets who speak.  Healthier foods are just not on their agenda for the general populace...they wish us to die.  Then the mention of a doctor.  Doctors used to be people who got into that profession to heal people and help the community stay healthy, but now they are in it for money....pure and simple.  If people are healthier, profits dive.  Even if just a few people are healthier and tell a few others and those few tell others, it could start a wave....much like our fermented feed wave has started articles~and trolling on the FF threads, I might add~ from those on the payroll of feed companies to try and scare people off feeding this to their flocks.  A decrease in feed consumption?????  That means less sales!!!!! 

Don't think it isn't happening, folks, and I'm not a bit crazy.  I called the bluff on just such a person on the other FF thread and it was obvious I had hit the mark as they just went silent.  But he'll be back when he thinks we've forgotten, to try and start a new group of newbies into a panic over feeding "moldy" feeds.

  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the feed companies are starting to add "probiotics" to their feeds now to try and compete.  They weren't there before and they are there now....and you think they don't monitor the biggest poultry site on the internet?  Of course they do...this is their target market.  Just like when they started increasing protein percentages in laying rations when they noticed people were trying to mix their own feeds to increase proteins in an attempt to get more eggs.  It's all market research and development. 

As always, follow the money. 

 

[jbkirk]

Think of the motives of such an article and it will all become clear. For one, there is a push for population control going on by the powers that move things behind the puppets who speak. Healthier foods are just not on their agenda for the general populace...they wish us to die. Then the mention of a doctor. Doctors used to be people who got into that profession to heal people and help the community stay healthy, but now they are in it for money....pure and simple. If people are healthier, profits dive. Even if just a few people are healthier and tell a few others and those few tell others, it could start a wave....much like our fermented feed wave has started articles~and trolling on the FF threads, I might add~ from those on the payroll of feed companies to try and scare people off feeding this to their flocks. A decrease in feed consumption????? That means less sales!!!!!

Don't think it isn't happening, folks, and I'm not a bit crazy. I called the bluff on just such a person on the other FF thread and it was obvious I had hit the mark as they just went silent. But he'll be back when he thinks we've forgotten, to try and start a new group of newbies into a panic over feeding "moldy" feeds.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the feed companies are starting to add "probiotics" to their feeds now to try and compete. They weren't there before and they are there now....and you think they don't monitor the biggest poultry site on the internet? Of course they do...this is their target market. Just like when they started increasing protein percentages in laying rations when they noticed people were trying to mix their own feeds to increase proteins in an attempt to get more eggs. It's all market research and development.

As always, follow the money.

Or with Mrs. Obamas food campaign, she scared the food companys so bad that they all jumped in to "help" right away.

 

[glib]

Think of the motives of such an article and it will all become clear. For one, there is a push for population control going on by the powers that move things behind the puppets who speak. Healthier foods are just not on their agenda for the general populace...they wish us to die. Then the mention of a doctor. Doctors used to be people who got into that profession to heal people and help the community stay healthy, but now they are in it for money....pure and simple. If people are healthier, profits dive. Even if just a few people are healthier and tell a few others and those few tell others, it could start a wave....much like our fermented feed wave has started articles~and trolling on the FF threads, I might add~ from those on the payroll of feed companies to try and scare people off feeding this to their flocks. A decrease in feed consumption????? That means less sales!!!!!

Don't think it isn't happening, folks, and I'm not a bit crazy. I called the bluff on just such a person on the other FF thread and it was obvious I had hit the mark as they just went silent. But he'll be back when he thinks we've forgotten, to try and start a new group of newbies into a panic over feeding "moldy" feeds.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the feed companies are starting to add "probiotics" to their feeds now to try and compete. They weren't there before and they are there now....and you think they don't monitor the biggest poultry site on the internet? Of course they do...this is their target market. Just like when they started increasing protein percentages in laying rations when they noticed people were trying to mix their own feeds to increase proteins in an attempt to get more eggs. It's all market research and development.

As always, follow the money.

Concur with the sentiment. The article does not even distinguish between lactic acid in the gut and lactic acid inside the body, which are totally different things. I read most of what Ray Peat has written, but he really whiffs on this one. Fermentation in the body happens whether you want it or not. And the idea that fermented foods are more toxic than the natural food, which was filled with toxins by the plant to limit predation, is completely ridiculous. Ask 100 plant scientists if they think a plant defends itself chemically, and all 100 will say yes. Sure lactic acid in the upper gut can be a problem, in excess, but the toxins those bacteria degraded are far, far worse. You have to set your mind that all plant foods (except perhaps some fruits) are toxic, and that we have only fermentation, cooking and sprouting to counter that.

And if you think there is a conspiracy re: chicken feed, imagine what is going on with human feed, where an improvement in people's guts would bite off billions of dollars in diseases of civilization treatments.

But excess salt in human fermented foods is a concern and a contributing cause for disease, and excess salt is associated with upper digestive cancers. I will start playing with nukazuke soon, precisely to limit salt. Right now I try to limit salt and inject a lot of existing kraut juice, to lower the pH from the start, but that too has problems as it limits the bacterial variety, and in the end it is still salty.