Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Dianuzhka]

Okay...I have a concern that I posted on Bee's website and I'm going to post it here also.


I use fermentation on a regular basis in other venues (pickels, sauerkraut.... I'm also a cheesemaker) Based on my knowledge of lactic fermentation, one thing concerns me that I'm reading out there (BYC, Scratch Cradle) about fermenting feed that I want to mention here for your comment.

Both have stated the use of "bakers yeast" (the kind you use when making bread) as a start for the fermentation. From my understanding, baker's yeast would NOT be suitable for lacto-fermentation.

The process for lacto-fermenting feed is the same as fermenting an item such as pickles or sauerkraut. You can add the ACV, a little whey from cheesemaking, or a lactic culture if you want to encourage it to ferment faster. (You could actually get a recipe for sauerkraut or fermented pickles and use the recipe/method there for fermenting feed.)

The point of fermenting is to create an “acidified” product – thus “lactic fermentation” is an acidification of your feed. Think pickles or sauerkraut. The acid is what preserves the food you are fermenting, allows "good bacteria" (pro-biotics) to proliferate and keeps undesirable bacteria and certain yeasts from growing in the feed.

Baking yeast, however, is a different chemistry with a different result that would not be recommended for items that you are eating raw. (Have you ever picked up a piece of yeast-rising bread dough raw and eaten it? If you do, you won't like the effects!)

I think yeast is in the air and you will get it in the bucket even if you don't put it there, the thing is even if you want "good bacteria" to ferment it, the good bacteria is patiently waiting for the yeast to feed so it can eat the result, and the thing with raw dough is that is raw flour, but if you drink wine you sure are drinking the product of yeast..... just my understanding of the process.... one last thing: this is good yeast we are taking about.

 

[Ashdoes]

So, adding plain yogurt to my FF is ok too, right? I'm wondering if the FF will just kill off the good bacteria?

 

[chicken curious]

As a food fermenter for people (~5 years) and a fermenter for chickens (~2 months), I'd say you can add yogurt to your feed if you want to. Whether the beneficial bacteria in the yogurt will multiply depends on the amount of established cultures already in there and the amount of remaining 'food' for them. If there's room for some 'competition,' multiple strains of beneficial bacteria and yeasts can exist together.

HTH

 

[Taniamax]

Tried a little experiment this evening and fed the birds dry, un-FF....it was comical. They RAN for the coop and busted through the door and stopped like they hit a wall. A few stepped forward and pecked politely at this pale, dry stuff and then looked me as if to say, "That's real sweet, honey, but we only eat the fermented kind...thanks every so muchly." And they promptly turned their backs on this substandard fare and walked away. Each and every bird, after not eating feed since this morning, walked out of that coop and refused to eat the feed.

We're talkin' Cornish Cross here, folks, who would gladly eat ME if I stood still long enough.......

I'm leaving it there to see how long they'll go without before eating the stuff!

I'm still slowly working my way through this thread and hit post 406 out of 1,313 and I am rolling on the floor laughing!! Too funny! Bee, you have a wonderful way with words.

Just getting geared up to mix up a batch of FF for my layers tonight. I wanted to read the whole thread before starting, but I don't think I can wait that long. My husband drilled holes in a bucket for me and we are ready to go. I try to avoid plastic because it leaches chemicals, but I can't seem to find anything else on short notice. So, I'm using two 5 gal "food grade" pails like yours, Bee. Does anyone out there still use those great old ceramic chicken feeders? I can't find one that is reasonably priced. They are heavy, but no leaching of chemicals...

So excited to start. Would a kombucha mother added to the mix do any good?

 

[Leahs Mom]

I think yeast is in the air and you will get it in the bucket even if you don't put it there, the thing is even if you want "good bacteria" to ferment it, the good bacteria is patiently waiting for the yeast to feed so it can eat the result, and the thing with raw dough is that is raw flour, but if you drink wine you sure are drinking the product of yeast..... just my understanding of the process.... one last thing: this is good yeast we are taking about.

Yes, exactly! Yeast IS in the air and will be in your ferment. There are many strains of yeast and some yeast in the mix is good! However HEALTHY BALANCE IS THE KEY! You want the balance of GOOD bacteria and yeasts to be in balance in such a way that the yeast does not take over and spoil the batch.

Here's an example that I hope can kind-of illustrate this. (Please excuse the simplicity...I'm not wanting to get too technical here - just hopefully make it understandable.)

Our bodies have yeast (fungus) both on the surface from the environment and internally. Your body also has bacteria (good & bad) on the surface and internally. When these are functioning in a healthy balance, the good bacteria is "in charge" in your intestinal tract in such a way that it keeps the system running smoothly and healthy. These "good bacteria" are what we think of as "pro-biotics". This is a very important (If not the most important) part of our immune system.

When the system gets off balance however - (for example when you take an anti-biotic which takes out both the "good" and the "bad" bacteria), this opens the door for yeast to proliferate - causing your system to get out of balance and you get...the "dreaded yeast infection". [This also happens when "bad bacteria" is in over-growth causing other illness.]

So in our bodies - and in lactic fermentation - we want to keep the good bacteria "in charge" and proliferating in such a way that the other stuff doesn't get a chance to dominate.

 

[ChestnutRidge]

I do want to throw in that some of the researchers are intentionally using baker's yeast to help create an anerobic environment which supports the growth of the other beneficials and to improve poops and growth in broilers. I'm going to copy my response from my blog just in the interest of saving time.

Baker’s yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, not the candida that we should definitely be cautious of. Several of the studies only inoculated the food with Lactobacillus plantarum. Bifidobacterium is also mentioned and is apparently found in fermented milk products. The Enberg study used whatever cultures were caught from the air which included “E. coli, lactic acid bacteria,
enterococci, yeast and mould,” (p. 231). However, Yu, Dong, and Wu used a number of cultures specifically including Saccharomyces cerevisiae:

“A one in 1000 dilution of bacterial cultures, containing Saccharomyces cerevisae (CGMCC No. 2.1793), Lactobacillus acidophilum (CGMCC No. 0842), Enterococcus faecalis (CGMCC No. 1.130), Bifidobacterium bifidum (CGMCC No. 1.1853), Bacillus licheniformis (CGMCC No. 1.813) and Bacillus subtilis MA139 (Guo et al. 2006) were inoculated into the soybean meal fermentation feed,” (p. 167).

“Saccharomyces cerevisae was included to consume the oxygen inside the fermenting bag to promote the growth of anaerobes including L. acidophilum, B. bifidum, E. faecalis and Bacillus,” (p. 169).

The Chen et al. study also specifically looked at baker’s yeast:

“The major probiotic strains include Lactobacillus, Saccharomyces, Bacillus, Streptococcus, and Aspergillus(Tannock, 2001). [...] Diets supplemented with Bacillus subtilis, which secrete protease, amylase, and lipase, can improve growth performance (Santoso et al., 2001). Saccharomyces with protein digestion and high acidic capacity could prevent antimicrobial-associated diarrhea (Surawicz et al., 1989; Bleichner et al., 1997). [...] Diets supplemented with yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) cell-wall components can improve growth performance in chickens (Karaoglu and Durdag, 2005; Zhang et al., 2005). [...] Therefore, this study investigated the beneficial effects of combined 2-stage fermentation feed inoculated with high proteolytic capacity Bacillus subtilis var. natto N21 (Bac) in the first stage, and high acidic capacity Saccharomyces cerevisiae Y10 (Sac) in the second-stage fermentation,” (p. 309).

However, the results of the Chen study found no specific benefits for the S. cervisiae alone; it’s benefits were found in conjunction with other fermentation. “Therefore, FBac+Sac must be made using 2-stage fermentation using B. subtilis var. natto Bac in the first stage and S. cerevisae Y10 in the second stage to obtain the increased growth performance in broilers,” (p. 313). The feed inoculated with probiotics alone in this study did not increase weight gain in the broilers.

So, it looks like the baker’s yeast is included to help the other beneficials along by removing oxygen. The Chen study also says that it can help with the poops and improve growth performance.


Yu, Z., Dong, B., & Lu, W. (2009). Dynamics of bacterial community in solid-state fermented feed revealed by 16S rRNA. The Society for Applied Microbiology: Letters in Applied Microbiology, 49, 166-172.

Chen, K., Kho, W., You, S., Yeh, R., Tang, S., & Hsieh, C. (2009). Effects of Bacillus subtilis var. natto and Saccharomyces cerevisiae mixed fermented feed on the enhanced growth performance of broilers. Poultry Science, 88, 309-315. http://ps.fass.org/content/88/2/309.full.pdf+html

 

[griffinkid02]

You know, this make a lot of sense.... I used the bakers yeast to start out, and it seems like I'm constantly battling the odor coming off of the brew to keep it smelling sour and not rotten. There is no Braggs or other non pasturized ACV in my area that I have found so I basically thought I was starting with the only thing availible... Interesting...

 

[Leahs Mom]

Thanks, ChestnutRidge...I just read the post over at your site too!

BALANCE is definitely the key.

(And...I want to clarify that I wasn't using the "candida" example [bodily yeast infection] to imply that we're working with candida by using baker's yeast.........it was just an example to make the "balance" point... I hope I made that clear but I'm not sure so I thought I'd clarify that!)

!
I do want to throw in that some of the researchers are intentionally using baker's yeast to help create an anerobic environment which supports the growth of the other beneficials and to improve poops and growth in broilers. I'm going to copy my response from my blog just in the interest of saving time.

Baker’s yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, not the candida that we should definitely be cautious of. Several of the studies only inoculated the food with Lactobacillus plantarum. Bifidobacterium is also mentioned and is apparently found in fermented milk products. The Enberg study used whatever cultures were caught from the air which included “E. coli, lactic acid bacteria,
enterococci, yeast and mould,” (p. 231). However, Yu, Dong, and Wu used a number of cultures specifically including Saccharomyces cerevisiae:

“A one in 1000 dilution of bacterial cultures, containing Saccharomyces cerevisae (CGMCC No. 2.1793), Lactobacillus acidophilum (CGMCC No. 0842), Enterococcus faecalis (CGMCC No. 1.130), Bifidobacterium bifidum (CGMCC No. 1.1853), Bacillus licheniformis (CGMCC No. 1.813) and Bacillus subtilis MA139 (Guo et al. 2006) were inoculated into the soybean meal fermentation feed,” (p. 167).

“Saccharomyces cerevisae was included to consume the oxygen inside the fermenting bag to promote the growth of anaerobes including L. acidophilum, B. bifidum, E. faecalis and Bacillus,” (p. 169).

The Chen et al. study also specifically looked at baker’s yeast:

“The major probiotic strains include Lactobacillus, Saccharomyces, Bacillus, Streptococcus, and Aspergillus(Tannock, 2001). [...] Diets supplemented with Bacillus subtilis, which secrete protease, amylase, and lipase, can improve growth performance (Santoso et al., 2001). Saccharomyces with protein digestion and high acidic capacity could prevent antimicrobial-associated diarrhea (Surawicz et al., 1989; Bleichner et al., 1997). [...] Diets supplemented with yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) cell-wall components can improve growth performance in chickens (Karaoglu and Durdag, 2005; Zhang et al., 2005). [...] Therefore, this study investigated the beneficial effects of combined 2-stage fermentation feed inoculated with high proteolytic capacity Bacillus subtilis var. natto N21 (Bac) in the first stage, and high acidic capacity Saccharomyces cerevisiae Y10 (Sac) in the second-stage fermentation,” (p. 309).

However, the results of the Chen study found no specific benefits for the S. cervisiae alone; it’s benefits were found in conjunction with other fermentation. “Therefore, FBac+Sac must be made using 2-stage fermentation using B. subtilis var. natto Bac in the first stage and S. cerevisae Y10 in the second stage to obtain the increased growth performance in broilers,” (p. 313). The feed inoculated with probiotics alone in this study did not increase weight gain in the broilers.

So, it looks like the baker’s yeast is included to help the other beneficials along by removing oxygen. The Chen study also says that it can help with the poops and improve growth performance.


Yu, Z., Dong, B., & Lu, W. (2009). Dynamics of bacterial community in solid-state fermented feed revealed by 16S rRNA. The Society for Applied Microbiology: Letters in Applied Microbiology, 49, 166-172.

Chen, K., Kho, W., You, S., Yeh, R., Tang, S., & Hsieh, C. (2009). Effects of Bacillus subtilis var. natto and Saccharomyces cerevisiae mixed fermented feed on the enhanced growth performance of broilers. Poultry Science, 88, 309-315. http://ps.fass.org/content/88/2/309.full.pdf+html

 

[Ashdoes]

I just wanted to let anyone who needs it know, I got my huge bottle of Brags ACV on amazon. Great price and had free shipping offer at the time.

 

[sheila3935]

I've been going through the posts for a week now. I have just started with my first batch of meaties. They are 3 weeks old. Yesterday I started to ferment my first batch. Tonight it has really started to bubble. Smells great. Like everyone has stated kind of a sweet sour smell. Tomorrow I am going to give it to them for the first time. We will see how it goes. My husband is really skeptical about this, but he lets me handle all the chicken things. If this works for me as good as it has worked for everyone else, I will start with my layers next.