Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[glib]

Technically, you CAN... eventually you will have "spent" grains. The time required depends on several variables. As a general rule, a 5 gallon bucket of fermenting feed should be good for a week or more. The warmer/hotter the ambient temp, the less time and vice versa.

Definitely you can ferment too much. At some point all the carbohydrates and the fermentable fiber will be gone, and that is something that the animal needs. Big difference between summer and winter, as LS says, but even bigger difference between ground feed and whole grains (and big difference between cooked whole grains and raw whole grains). I don't think you can go two weeks with ground feed, a mother starter, in summer in Michigan. Of course in summer the animal does need less carbos, so this adjusts the window a bit. Try feeding spent grains from a brewery in place of feed, and see if they thrive (they won't).

 

[bluebirdnanny]

This is the reason I add both ground grain layer AND a bit of apple cider vinegar (with mother ie unpasterized) to my mix every few days.

Though with my brood half a kitty litter sized bucket only lasts two to three days in winter. But I don't have a huge flock yet. Right now after thinning there are just 17 poultry.

 

[Beekissed]

Definitely you can ferment too much. At some point all the carbohydrates and the fermentable fiber will be gone, and that is something that the animal needs. Big difference between summer and winter, as LS says, but even bigger difference between ground feed and whole grains (and big difference between cooked whole grains and raw whole grains). I don't think you can go two weeks with ground feed, a mother starter, in summer in Michigan. Of course in summer the animal does need less carbos, so this adjusts the window a bit. Try feeding spent grains from a brewery in place of feed, and see if they thrive (they won't).

I do in WV and I see no change in the condition of the birds~thus no change in the nutritional level of the feed~ and I know WV is just as hot as Michigan in the summer. I think spent grains from a brewery have been through a whole different process~boiling, for one~ than just grains in a bucket, so their being spent is understandable.

 

[glib]

I do in WV and I see no change in the condition of the birds~thus no change in the nutritional level of the feed~ and I know WV is just as hot as Michigan in the summer. I think spent grains from a brewery have been through a whole different process~boiling, for one~ than just grains in a bucket, so their being spent is understandable.

you are probably right and I am probably wrong. A cooked, sprouted whole grain batch ferments completely in 4-7 days (no carbohydrates left) at 65/70. The same stuff, pulverized, sometimes brews in one day.

However, the chicken feed ferments are bacterial ferments, particularly lactic acid bacteria(krauts and olives) and acetobacter (vinegar bacteria), not yeast such as in the production of alcoholic beverages. I have never done two weeks but I could have gotten the right idea from my other ferments (I have brewed for 20 years, and have spread into different fermentations). It is 1-4 days for beer, a week for wine or hard cider, but it is one month for vinegar or krauts, and it is 9 months for cured olives (ask me how cured olives taste at one month), all numbers for my basement, which is between 57 and 72 all year. So I accept that it is one month or more for whole grain, assuming we have only bacteria. I find it hard to believe that you can go two weeks with pulverized feed, but I never tried that either.

 

[Latestarter]

... However, the chicken feed ferments are bacterial ferments, particularly lactic acid bacteria(krauts and olives) and acetobacter (vinegar bacteria), not yeast such as in the production of alcoholic beverages. I have never done two weeks but I could have gotten the right idea from my other ferments (I have brewed for 20 years, and have spread into different fermentations). It is 1-4 days for beer, a week for wine or hard cider, but it is one month for vinegar or krauts, and it is 9 months for cured olives (ask me how cured olives taste at one month), all numbers for my basement, which is between 57 and 72 all year. So I accept that it is one month or more for whole grain, assuming we have only bacteria. I find it hard to believe that you can go two weeks with pulverized feed, but I never tried that either.

Sounds like you have a lot of experience fermenting for different reasons.

I've found that I myself have no reason to, and have never fermented feed amounts (full batches) that last(ed) more than a few days to a week max. The longest my ferment has lasted was about 7 days when I had a full batch made and the outside temp remained well below freezing continuously for almost a week and I was unable to feed it out to the birds. Even at the end of that period, though the aroma of the ferment became much stronger and maybe a little more "sour", it in no way smelled bad (to me) and the birds didn't hesitate to chow right down when I gave it to them.

So I have no practical experience to say exactly how long it takes tor the ferment to "spend" the batch (whole grains mixed with store bought granulated feed). I have noticed that because I back slop with remaining feed in the bottom of the 5 gallon pail(s) that the ferment happens faster (by smell) and after 1 day smells really "sweet" to me. On the occasions when the ferment has been left for 4-5 days, the strength of the aroma increases steadily, but has never gotten to the point of being horrendously strong. Some folks have described it as smelling like puke...

So my statements are not based on scientific fact or testing, but more on practical/personal experience/observation. Thanks all!

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
If you have a way of testing to see if the feed has lost nutritional value after 2 wks of ferment, it would really be cool if you could go ahead and test that so that we could see the results. It would be educational for us all to have that sort of info. Actually, if you can test to see just when that mix starts to degrade and at what temps, it would be even more beneficial to those of us who ferment.

 

[glib]

the question though is which nutrient. I can readily believe that the longest you go the more available all minerals become, but it should plateau. Any fermentation will produce primarily B and K vitamins. Vitamins A, D and C are not produced at all or in any significant amount in the ferment (probably E and other tocopherols too). The B and K vitamins will rise and then plateau too (the B vitamins may decline a bit). That is that as far as the micronutrients.

As far as the macronutrients are concerned, this is where you pay the bacteria their salary. They ferment proteins, fermentable fiber and carbohydrates, smallest to biggest. Proteins will initially increase, not in quantity but in absorption, protease inhibitors (themselves proteins) are a major problem with humans and livestock alike and bacteria degrade them nicely. Eventually they will use all nitrogen, so I expect a maximum. The other two will decline from the get go. FF are the major prebiotic, and important to the animal as further fermentation in the gut delivers short chain fatty acids precisely where they are needed. Carbohydrates may become more digestible initially, as there are lots of them that are digestible or not depending on temperature and present enzymes (humans do this too, with resistant starches in potatoes for example, digestible when hot, fermentable when cold).

I do think that there has to be a maximum in overall nutrition, but defining nutrition opens another can of mealworms. If the animal is free ranging, it probably mostly needs the good bacteria and calories. If it is in a barren run, it needs everything from feed.

Finally, let me add that there is an adaptation process. The bacteria in the mother have evolved to make good use of the existing feed, and they colonize the gut where they ferment further at 100F. So you are freeing some nutrients to be absorbed in the small intestine, and also optimize the ceca and large intestine fermentation.

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

so GLIB,

Do you think that I could an inkling of what is going on with my chicken ferment by monitoring the Ph for a week?

I know that with peppers it takes 2 months do be slightly edible! If the ph is in the mid 4s I know it's NOT done. Tasting it will definitely be a mouth burning-oh-my-GOD-that's-WRONG experience. Just wondering because frankly I had not thought so much about it not being quite ready!

Any thoughts?

 

[glib]

so GLIB,

Do you think that I could an inkling of what is going on with my chicken ferment by monitoring the Ph for a week?

I know that with peppers it takes 2 months do be slightly edible! If the ph is in the mid 4s I know it's NOT done. Tasting it will definitely be a mouth burning-oh-my-GOD-that's-WRONG experience. Just wondering because frankly I had not thought so much about it not being quite ready!

Any thoughts?

For krauts, the pH decreases continuously. I have very alkaline water (9.2), and when I start a cabbage kraut (you need to press them to get the juice out), the initial pH is between 6 and 7. A mature kraut will be in the low 3 or high 2. For ACV, you start already in the mid 3 from the apple juice (I have done it also with crushed apples, same thing), alcoholic fermentation give you low 3, and finished vinegar is 2.7 to 2.8. But I have never tested the pH of fermented feed! My guess is that a whole corn ferment would start around 4.5 (YMMV, it will depend entirely on your mother) and be at 3.5-4 after one week. These seem like very low number but there are a lot of regular foods that are more acidic than that. Concord grapes, my fave fruit, is 2.8, and apples are 3.5. Most veggies are around 5-5.5.

The phenomena associated with fermented feed are more complex than just pH. I will try to make a list:

0) normal tap water kills bacteria through chlorine and chloramine, and the organic acids counteract that by neutralizing them. specially chloramine which is stable and reacts only with certain acids. if you drink just tap water, you may kill some of your (and your chicken's) species in the gut. ACV in water is good for a number of things and this is one of them (neutralizing chlorinated compounds).

1) bacteria express a host of enzymes themselves, most notably vitamins B and K, which are available both in the upper (due to the ferment) and lower (due to colonization and further fermentation at 100F) digestive tract. Bacteria produce short chain fatty acids (SCFA) from fermentable fiber, and these compounds are particularly anti-inflammatory, and feed the gut (blood does not reach everywhere, and the gut uses these compounds for energy directly, circulating the rest in the bloodstream). They are also extra calories from the same food. FF is plentiful in grains. SCFA also asset in mineral absorption, they stick to a mineral atom due to their acidity, and get absorbed in the gut. The best known SCFA is acetic acid.

for the rest you can follow references from this nice page
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/soaked-sprouted-fermented-grains/#axzz3RqO9MiKt
its data summarized below

2) phytates are compounds that bind to minerals, do not get digested and generally strongly limit mineral absorption. These do 90% disappear in hours to days in millet and wheat, rendering the ferment much more nutritious in minerals.

3) enzyme inhibitors disappear by 58 and 75% in 24 hrs in sorghum, and one completely in millet in 48 hrs. this increases absorption of carbohydrates and proteins from the food

4) lectins appear to need very high temperatures (105F) and they are virtually eliminated but presumably some reduction even at 70F. Eliminating lectins (which are proteins themselves) eliminates one of the major sources of gut inflammation. A healthy gut both improves the health of the animal, being a strong barrier to a host of things (such as bacteria, bacteria fragments, whole proteins), and also absorbs nutrients better. So you see that we are in very complex interactions here, and probably having the same flora work on the feed at mild temperatures (in the fermenter) and hot temps (in the gut) helps.

Agglutinins are toxins that make blood cells clump together (some, like wheat germ agglutinin, are deadly in milligram quantities), when you react to some supermarket meat you may show sensitivity to these things that entered the bloodstream of the animal at a CAFO site. they are themselves proteins so some reduction can be expected. But you get the idea. you can see why traditional societies are so keen on 2-day ferments of grains, and why chicken owners swear by a 4-day ferment. Also why the numbers on that bag of feed are rough indicators.

 

[Tikkijane]

Thank you and @Beekissed
 for educating me! I will be approaching my FF with a much different perspective than I had just a few days ago. 

I think it's in our nature to want to give animals our human traits. Sometimes, I think we're not doing them any favors.

{I learned from @Beekissed. Lol. }