Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[cortner1195]

Not sure of the feeding regimen as I don't have meaties and just use the FF for my flock. They get fed a decent portion every morning, and they eat off it all day as and when they want to. I try to put enough out so that there is very little to none left in the trough by bed time for them. They are not fat and not thin and are overall healthy and good looking (aside from the bare backs and elbows from the overzealous roos).

I HAVE had FF sit in a 5 gallon bucket for more than a week (sub zero cold snap), and though the strength of the ferment got very strong (smelled VERY strong, almost like puke), there was nothing "rancid" about it, it did not mold, and when fed to the birds, was consumed with gusto and absolutely no ill effects. When the bucket was almost empty, I simply added new food/grains and water and continued on

No biggie... I would guess/estimate that a 5 gallon bucket would be good for better than 2 weeks before the grains are fully spent. Obviously temp/moisture content and FF grain make-up would be the variables involved... some grains ferment out faster, some slower.

I only add ACV when starting a new bucket from scratch, and only because... well, just because... I KNOW it's not really needed or required, but it makes me feel like I'm "helping the process"

And I don't know why, but every now and then I just enjoy a whiff of ACV

Sorry about the weird health things with your chicks... that is pretty strange. Glad everything seems back to normal now. Hope you have the same success you had with your last batch.

Thanks, I have read somewhere in the past not to leave it out for extended periods of time, so I pull the dishes when I go back to check. I am very happy that I held the loss to one bird, and everyone looks better. I will keep the vitamins and Corid in the water for five days, then just the vitamins from there on out. I do like to add the small splash of ACV if the bucket gets a bit low on grain to help the process a bit. I learned last year to buy the cheap store ACV, pour a bit out and add some Braggs. Then I let it sit for a month to build the culture up. It works great.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:

I don't know what you are calling rancid but if it's fermented, it shouldn't become rancid at all. Usually the term rancid refers to oils and fats that have gone bad:
Quote:
It may produce more acetic acid as the fermentation grows deeper and the more LABs colonize the feed and that produces a more sour smell, but rancid should not even be in the picture. Fermentation doesn't make the feed spoil where you'd have to throw it out...think more of sourdough bread mix that sits fermenting on a counter top~ or in the fridge if folks are wanting to slow down the ferment~ for months and, if used frequently like we use and replenish these buckets, for years. Some sourdough mixes have been passed down generation to generation for hundreds of years.

Adding fresh feed every day might not get you a good level of fermentation and the splash of ACV isn't necessary at all if you are rebatching from an old mix. You just don't need to feed the mix daily if you have an entire bucket of feed for the scoby to inoculate..that takes time depending on the ambient temps...even if you just have a small bucket, you shouldn't have to feed daily for fear that all the sugars are digested. In the summer it's really quick to get it all the way through but not necessarily into every single grain particle, in the cooler temps it takes longer. For large amounts it takes longer than smaller amounts. In the summer I mix smaller batches and feed it out more quickly to accommodate the increase in LAB activity.

I've left buckets sit without care for a week at a time, no stirring or feeding past the time of refreshing, and no problems...just pleasant fermentation. In the spring, fall and winter it's common for me to have FF in the bucket for 2 wks without refreshing.

I can tell you this, I can place a cup or two of flour in a jar, add water and wait until it ferments...usually by the next day I'll see bubbles forming. Five days later that will still be fermenting and smelling even more sour~without adding fresh flour~and still actively fermenting, which means the LABs are still feeding on the sugars there. And that's at room temps.

If you are just feeding wet feed and not even waiting for a good culture to grow, you may experience wet and foul smelling(as in rotten smelling) feed if you dish it out in the feeders before good bacteria have colonized the feed. Without the good bacteria inside the mix it leaves opportunity for more harmful bacteria and molds to grow.

I don't take the feeders away from the meatie chicks. I just feed a certain amount and they clean it up pretty quickly after a certain age. When still just little like yours the amount of feed I dish out lasts them a couple of hours or more. Very little chicks can't eat as much at first and so need a longer time to get their good morning/evening ration. If you think they need more, feed more.

The results you are seeing with the legs might just be a bad strain of meat birds even if you got them from the previous source. I had a similar experience last year when I got 10 from TSC, just like I had done some years previously. The first batch were wonderful and never had an ounce of problem. This last year's batch were plagued with leg problems, one died the day after they arrived here, another a couple of weeks later and I killed them all way too early because they were not foraging due to leg issues. Same source, same hatchery used by TSC both times. A batch in between from a hatchery out west never had one issue from feeding the FF, all 50+ thrived and were active to the end except a few that drowned in the dog's water bucket and one killed by a DP rooster.

I was raising some DP chicks at the same time as these last meaties and none had any issues with nutrition whatsoever. My conclusion, bad strain of CX....poor genetics. I've heard TSC changed hatcheries since last year and maybe it was because of complaints about this last strain of CX. I know I won't be buying CX from TSC any time soon.

 

[enola]

Corid should be the ONLY thing in the water when treating chickensfor coccidia. When the Corid treatment is over then you give the chickens vitamins and probiotics.

 

[cortner1195]

I will change out the water to corid only for the rest of the five days. Then back to some vitamins. They are all looking much better.

I didn't explain very well. I usually keep two to three buckets going at all times. Occasionally hubby will pull food, and let a bucket get quite low. If that happens, and I have to add a lot of new food and water , then I add a little splash to get that bucket up and going. Usually I feed from one bucket for a few days, then to the other. I can usually tell by the smell of the feed. I like the smell of fermented food. Rancid was just a bad choice of words.

 

[enola]

I have had my FF smell like lots of different things. Some days it smells "strong" some days it "stinks" but not in a bad way. I have four 2 gallon buckets that I mix mine up in. I feed all of it but about a cup full. Then I add new feed to the bucket, slop in some water and let it set 4 days. I stir every bucket every day. I have been doing this all winter.

 

[LadyIsadora]

I really am going to read all of this thread. Eventually. I got to page 120 then had to start over. Meanwhile Im going to ask questions that were undoubtedly all ready answered earlier in the thread hoping someone will be patient & understanding & answer them.

I went ahead and got started with the limited understanding I have at this point. I wrapped about 3 Cups of feed in a bundle of cheesecloth and immersed it in a bucket of water I had just added a glug of ACV to. I figured the cheese cloth would allow adequate drainage. I covered the whole thing with nylon hose (panty hose) to keep out unwanted debris & bugs but still allow some amount of ventilation. I left it out in the unheated sunroom to sit about an hour ago.
Will this set up work? I will change my set up if/ when what Im doing is working or not, so i will be able to accommodate larger batches.

I am expecting 12-14 ducklings in the morning. I want to feed them fermented feed.
Am I too late to start a batch?
How long should it ferment to start?
Can I take away and add more every day to feed or should I wait for longer fermentation time?

Does Braggs ACV ever go bad? Mom gave me a gallon some years ago. I used most of it but the tail end has sat in the bottom of the pantry. It smells fine and is quite cloudy. It doesn't taste bad, just strong. Can I use it for fermenting?

I have Un-medicated Purina premium poultry feed start & grow. . OK to Use this without adding anything else?

Do I still need to add the nutritional yeast? If yes, do I add this before fermenting or sprinkle it on after?

I think thats it for now. Thanks for taking the time to help. I know its a pain to answer the same questions all the time.

 

[LadyIsadora]

Im up to about post 375 of this thread. This question has not yet been answered.

There have been a lot of comments about the decreased feed consumption when birds have been switched to the FF.
I was wondering if anyone out there gives their birds ACV in their water and experienced the same type of decrease. Without using the FF.

This is my first experience with birds, I got two Pekin ducks and at two weeks I could not believe how much they were eating.
I was poking around on the forum, and stumbled upon some good reasons to put ACV in their water so I went & found the ancient Braggs bottle I just knew I had.

In addition to their 3 gal water jug, I put out a quart water bottle with a cap-full or two of Braggs in it. It is almost always empty at the end of the day.
I was filling their quart jar of food twice a day before I started putting out the additional water. It went down to once a day, and is holding there. They are now just over 4 weeks, not yet fully feathered. Free fed (always have access) constant water, grit free choice, & let out of their run to forage several times a day, (but usually head straight for the pond and play instead, I cant get them off there till I shoo them)

I guess the question disguised in this dissertation is thus: has anyone else noticed these benefits Just by the simple act of adding ACV to their water?

 

[Latestarter]

I really am going to read all of this thread. Eventually. I got to page 120 then had to start over. Meanwhile Im going to ask questions that were undoubtedly all ready answered earlier in the thread hoping someone will be patient & understanding & answer them.

I went ahead and got started with the limited understanding I have at this point. I wrapped about 3 Cups of feed in a bundle of cheesecloth and immersed it in a bucket of water I had just added a glug of ACV to. I figured the cheese cloth would allow adequate drainage. I covered the whole thing with nylon hose (panty hose) to keep out unwanted debris & bugs but still allow some amount of ventilation. I left it out in the unheated sunroom to sit about an hour ago.
Will this set up work? I will change my set up if/ when what Im doing is working or not, so i will be able to accommodate larger batches.

Answer: Yes, it should work, but is much more labor intensive than necessary! There's no need to wrap in cheesecloth, and no need to cover to avoid bugs and debris! Think about what the chickens will be eating under normal foraging conditions; bugs and debris! The simplest method is to simply place the feed you wish to ferment in a container, add water and stir till it's the consistency of oatmeal. It will thicken as the grains and such absorb water and some evaporates. If it gets too thick, you can always add more water. if too runny, you can always add more feed/grain. There are links in my signature line that will help you..

I am expecting 12-14 ducklings in the morning. I want to feed them fermented feed.
Am I too late to start a batch?

Answer: NO, it's never "too late" to start a batch. It is however too late to start now and have fermented feed for the ducklings tomorrow.

How long should it ferment to start?

Answer: The full ferment effect will take 3-4 days to occur. It is dependent on numerous factors with temp being the most critical. warmer helps it happen faster, colder slows things down. Other factors also have a bearing on the time required. Once you have a "bucket" fermented and ready to feed from, use it until there's a small amount left and then add fresh feed/grain and water and stir well (referred to as "backslopping"). This new batch will ferment overnight due to the massive amounts of good cultures already present in the backslop.

Can I take away and add more every day to feed or should I wait for longer fermentation time?

Answer: Yes, but that's really not the most efficient way to do things... you should ferment enough feed for 2-5 days at a time and then backslop (backslopping means to add new feed/grains and water to whats left of the existing fermented feed) overnight for the next 2-5 days.

Does Braggs ACV ever go bad? Mom gave me a gallon some years ago. I used most of it but the tail end has sat in the bottom of the pantry. It smells fine and is quite cloudy. It doesn't taste bad, just strong. Can I use it for fermenting?

Answer: No, it doesn't "go bad" as far as I know. There's no "need" to use ACV to start or continue the ferment. The feed/grains will ferment just fine all by themselves without you adding anything.

I have Un-medicated Purina premium poultry feed start & grow. . OK to Use this without adding anything else?

Answer: Yes, you can use whatever feed you decide suits you and your flock best to ferment. Many of us use a higher protein feed and "cut it" with whole grains such as oats/barley/milo/millet/BOSS/etc. I mix 28% protein game bird starter with 18% broiler finisher and then add all the above mentioned grains to bring the finished mix to 14-16% protein. numerous studies indicate protein values higher than 14-16% are wasted on chickens (except in certain specific situations).

Do I still need to add the nutritional yeast? If yes, do I add this before fermenting or sprinkle it on after?

Answer: No, there's no need to add yeast at all... If you decide you need to add it, I would sprinkle it on the already fermented feed just before feeding. That way it won't potentially mess up a perfectly good ferment.

I think thats it for now. Thanks for taking the time to help. I know its a pain to answer the same questions all the time.

Im up to about post 375 of this thread. This question has not yet been answered.

There have been a lot of comments about the decreased feed consumption when birds have been switched to the FF.
I was wondering if anyone out there gives their birds ACV in their water and experienced the same type of decrease. Without using the FF.

Answer: No, the ACV does not provide any nutrition to the birds. It provides gut flora to help them metabolize the other foods they eat. The fermenting of the feed allows the birds to absorb (estimate) 12%+/- more nutrients from the same food they would normally eat NOT fermented. It doesn't "add" nutrients, just helps the birds gain more of whats there that otherwise would be wasted as poop. Typically birds will eat until they reach the nutrition amount their system requires and since they get more from the FF, they need to eat less to get what they need.

This is my first experience with birds, I got two Pekin ducks and at two weeks I could not believe how much they were eating.
I was poking around on the forum, and stumbled upon some good reasons to put ACV in their water so I went & found the ancient Braggs bottle I just knew I had.

In addition to their 3 gal water jug, I put out a quart water bottle with a cap-full or two of Braggs in it. It is almost always empty at the end of the day.
I was filling their quart jar of food twice a day before I started putting out the additional water. It went down to once a day, and is holding there. They are now just over 4 weeks, not yet fully feathered. Free fed (always have access) constant water, grit free choice, & let out of their run to forage several times a day, (but usually head straight for the pond and play instead, I cant get them off there till I shoo them)

I guess the question disguised in this dissertation is thus: has anyone else noticed these benefits Just by the simple act of adding ACV to their water?

edit: to say a belated

and welcome to the fermented feed thread

 

[LadyIsadora]

Thank You Latestarter for taking the time to answer I appreciate your time & warm welcome ;-)

Sitting...waiting ......peeps will be here within the hour
sitting ...waiting.......WHICH hour???? This morning is lasting for hours. It takes so long LOL

 

[DesertChic]

Thank You Latestarter for taking the time to answer I appreciate your time & warm welcome ;-)

Sitting...waiting ......peeps will be here within the hour
sitting ...waiting.......WHICH hour???? This morning is lasting for hours. It takes so long LOL

I have so much empathy for you! I thought I would lose my mind waiting for the chicks to hatch during my first incubation experience. And this is why I haven't been able to bring myself to buy actual chicks to be shipped through the mail. I'd probably camp out in the post office and make a nuisance of myself, worrying over their safe arrival. At least if I'm hatching eggs I can just waste hours each day staring at eggs like a lunatic in the privacy of my own home.

Good luck with your new babies!