Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[waltandlori]

Let's just put it this way...you could go lower on protein..much lower..and it would still be a healthy, balanced ration. Even more so. This saves you money as you can cut that layer ration with a cheaper whole grain by 50% and still have good nutrition. Especially when you ferment...that kicks the actual protein used and it's usability up to the nth degree.

I've noticed more and more people reporting the only layer rations they can get are 20% or higher and I'm wondering why the feed businesses are upping that protein all the sudden...possibly to justify a higher price? To satisfy an urban market of inexperienced flock owners who are thinking that more protein equals better nutrition?

The whole idea of this fermented feed is to increase usability of proteins so you can feed less total feed and also cut your ration with cheaper grains and still get the right amount of protein. But what I'm seeing is folks fermenting their feed and then throwing more and higher protein supplements in on top of the fermentation. That's not saving money, not feeding less feed nor is it keeping the nutrients at a balanced and safe level. It's just throwing a bunch of money in a bucket and fermenting it, then shortening the life of the chickens...which also hurts the pocketbook.

I'm having trouble understanding the rationale behind these methods.

While it would be nice to know as much as you (a compliment not a dig)it isn't that easy, at least for me. I tend to go by what the feed store recommended. That said if you ask 5 people what to feed you get 6 answers and one maybe. Heres mine, for the layers 16% crude protein calcium 3.8 min 4.8 max. Processed grain by products is 1st on the ingredients list followed bygrain products then a bunch of stuff too hard to pronounce, now that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling... The protein and calcium seems to be right by the general consensus. Now for the meatys at 4 weeks +, recommended feed is gamebird pellet at 22% crude protein 1st 3 ingredients are corn, soybean meal,wheat middlings. first 2 are GMO for sure. Please no one take this as gospel as it was reccommeded by 2 different suppliers. I have no idea where to go from here. I'm probably not going to kill them before butchering, but is it good enough, is it too high, what? I guess I need to hire a dietician to figure it out. Might as well have em figure in the goats too! BTW finally got them banded yesterday. BYC does mean backyard critters right? If you have to do too much running around to different places to get what you need and it's all GMO's anyways (forget organics can't afford that) figure your time processing and these are expensive birds. Am I relagated to spen my life eating wal-mart crud?

Walt
PS musy have done something wrong no bubbles no "mother on top and still smells like ACV and pellets!

 

[Chad Cool]

Quote:
I put 1\2 gallon in the 5 gallon bucket.

 

[Beekissed]

Not understanding Bee? Why wont their pen be available tomorrow?
Glad you're still getting eggs from Little Red!

I'll be closing it off so they cannot get into it and later I'm deconstructing it so I can use the wire for my wood containment, for extra firewood storage. I'll then reconstruct this pen with plastic mesh.

BeeKissed,
I've read your comments about excess protein and wanted to comment. If the calories aren't coming from protein, they are coming from fat and carbohydrates. Any protein reduction means an increase in the levels of carbohydrates and fats. I wonder if older chickens don't have insulin resistance, which would make them fat on few calories. I don't see the evil you do in excess protein. If there is too much protein, it is simply broken down into energy, albeit, expensive energy. There is no disagreement from me that protein costs more than carbohydrates or fats.

The evil in excess protein is that the chicken can only break down and use the proteins for only so much energy, the rest has to be excreted, just like in us humans. The organs that deal with excreting these excess proteins are the liver and kidneys, which are overtaxed by dealing with a constant bombardment of proteins. This leads to liver disease and renal disease, meaning they cannot function as they used to do and toxins will build up in the blood stream, thereby inhibiting cellular function and exchange of nutrients and oxygen. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the excess protein in the blood stream is broken down into uric acid crystals that, unable to be excreted through the kidneys, will collect in distal areas of the body...toes, ankles,knees and rest in those joints, causing inflammation and then infection. It's called infectious gout and people on here call it bumblefoot and blame the roosts, cuts in the feet, etc. for something that is happening internally instead of from external sources.

While all that is happening, the excess protein in the bloodstream that could not be metabolized into energy is also causing arterial blockages in the heart, leading to congestive heart failure and abdominal ascites, sending the bird into respiratory distress. The excess fluid in the lungs caused by the congestive heart failure is a breeding ground for bacteria and lead to respiratory illnesses...but people here say it's just from outside sources and they try to impose more biosecurity in their coops to avoid all the illnesses they keep getting in the flocks.

The fact of the matter is that good health in birds starts from the diet and any diet too rich in any one nutrient can cause strain on internal organs, just like any deficit in nutrients can cause organ failure. Keeping chickens in the middle makes for them a long life with no health issues until they have naturally declined in their organ health due to old age...normally, if a person is culling correctly, they will never see the affects of old age on a chicken.

From a nursing standpoint, increased proteins for an extended period of time is a death knell for chickens, particularly for those kept in coop and run situations that provides very little true exercise, as they are using less energy than they normally would. As anyone who lives in America can tell you, feed a creature rich foods high in proteins, fats, sugars and sodium and then sit it in the house on the couch for most of its life will result in health problems...one needs only look at our health crisis in this country to figure that one out.

Just because one lowers the proteins in the feed does not always follows that one would also increase sugars and fats...there is a component called crude fiber that is very much needed in their diet and is a large part of what they consume out on forage,in the fibers of the grass and the shells of the bugs they consume. There are also minerals and vitamins in the feed that comprise a portion of their diet. A happy middle ground for all these important nutrients is best, without loading up on any one thing for an extended period of time.

Thank you both for your responses.

If I take my layer mash and mix it 50:50 with crushed barely, will this lower the protein % ?

Also, how can I up the calcium intake from what is available in the layer - the layer is 3.8% calcium.

Unfortunately my options of feeding a different layer with less protein and more calcium is limited as my local feed store only sells this type of layer feed.

Thanks for your info.

If you are free ranging, they are getting most of their calcium needs from the greens they are eating. If in a coop and run, you can always offer oyster shell free choice if you don't feel your calcium levels are optimal. I wouldn't add them directly to the feed, though I have done this in the past to try an experiment, I found no difference in shell tensile strength by actually feeding OS in the feeds, but more likely put a strain on kidneys by forcing them to consume excess calcium.

I would mix that mash with the whole grains at a 50%, as you describe and this will benefit your chickens in the long run. Come spring and peak laying season, you can mix it 2 parts layer, 1 part whole grain for a slightly more rich feed to support their increased production.

 

[Beekissed]

While it would be nice to know as much as you (a compliment not a dig)it isn't that easy, at least for me. I tend to go by what the feed store recommended. That said if you ask 5 people what to feed you get 6 answers and one maybe. Heres mine, for the layers 16% crude protein calcium 3.8 min 4.8 max. Processed grain by products is 1st on the ingredients list followed bygrain products then a bunch of stuff too hard to pronounce, now that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling... The protein and calcium seems to be right by the general consensus. Now for the meatys at 4 weeks +, recommended feed is gamebird pellet at 22% crude protein 1st 3 ingredients are corn, soybean meal,wheat middlings. first 2 are GMO for sure. Please no one take this as gospel as it was reccommeded by 2 different suppliers. I have no idea where to go from here. I'm probably not going to kill them before butchering, but is it good enough, is it too high, what? I guess I need to hire a dietician to figure it out. Might as well have em figure in the goats too! BTW finally got them banded yesterday. BYC does mean backyard critters right? If you have to do too much running around to different places to get what you need and it's all GMO's anyways (forget organics can't afford that) figure your time processing and these are expensive birds. Am I relagated to spen my life eating wal-mart crud?

Walt
PS musy have done something wrong no bubbles no "mother on top and still smells like ACV and pellets!

Just give it time, stir it and wait...it doesn't always bubble all the time and sometimes you'll only see the bubbles when you stir. Sometimes it takes a little longer depending on your climate, the feed used, the methods, etc.

If your meaties are healthy and thriving on what you are feeding and you can bear the expense of it, don't fix what isn't broken. If you want to save money next time on a meat project, you can go with a cheaper feed and get good results as well, just a longer grow out period. Most people go with what the store recommends or what the hatcheries recommend for their layers and their meat birds and that's fine when you are starting out for the first time on these things. As time goes along, though, you might find yourself experimenting with ways to keep your birds healthier that go beyond what the commercial ag business is recommending for your food supply and then you will step out and try things...like this fermented feed.

No matter what I know or think I know, I don't know enough and will always be trying things just like this...which is why this thread was born. An experiment and a search for a better way to do things. If you are dedicated to doing this chicken thing right, you will find yourself on a quest for knowledge that transcends what you can find at the feed store or on a hatchery site and will try things in your own backyard to see if they will work. Whether they work or not, you then own that knowledge and no one can really take it from you..so you have the basis of experience with that particular thing. Make no mistake, it's all a learning curve and we are all located somewhere along that bell...I don't know even a smidge of what I would like to know, but I'll know more tomorrow than I did yesterday because I don't ever stop learning. That's why most of the threads you see here that were started by me are about trying a new thing, a new experiment, a new way of doing things.

 

[Triple Willow]

Quote:
I put 1\2 gallon in the 5 gallon bucket.

If you mean 1/2 gallon of the butterilk, that won't hurt anything. Now you shouldn't have to add anything else except feed and water for a long long time. Just be sure not to use up all the feed before you add back more feed and water. Some people add back feed as they use feed out of the bucket. When mine gets down to about 1/3 to 1/4 of a bucket I add a gallon of water and stir it real good then add more feed (while stirring) and then add more water. As far as I know either way is fine.

 

[waltandlori]

Just give it time, stir it and wait...it doesn't always bubble all the time and sometimes you'll only see the bubbles when you stir. Sometimes it takes a little longer depending on your climate, the feed used, the methods, etc.

If your meaties are healthy and thriving on what you are feeding and you can bear the expense of it, don't fix what isn't broken. If you want to save money next time on a meat project, you can go with a cheaper feed and get good results as well, just a longer grow out period. Most people go with what the store recommends or what the hatcheries recommend for their layers and their meat birds and that's fine when you are starting out for the first time on these things. As time goes along, though, you might find yourself experimenting with ways to keep your birds healthier that go beyond what the commercial ag business is recommending for your food supply and then you will step out and try things...like this fermented feed.

No matter what I know or think I know, I don't know enough and will always be trying things just like this...which is why this thread was born. An experiment and a search for a better way to do things. If you are dedicated to doing this chicken thing right, you will find yourself on a quest for knowledge that transcends what you can find at the feed store or on a hatchery site and will try things in your own backyard to see if they will work. Whether they work or not, you then own that knowledge and no one can really take it from you..so you have the basis of experience with that particular thing. Make no mistake, it's all a learning curve and we are all located somewhere along that bell...I don't know even a smidge of what I would like to know, but I'll know more tomorrow than I did yesterday because I don't ever stop learning. That's why most of the threads you see here that were started by me are about trying a new thing, a new experiment, a new way of doing things.

Sorry about the call the wambulance, bad day I guess. When things start going south they
get on the bobsled and go lol. My hens in all appearances are doing well, still not laying right getting 3-6 eggs out of 9, only 2 yesterday, but I'm hoping that will pass soon. They started laying last year around this time. They eat very little of the feed they prefer to free range and I have a large yard for them to go in, woods, lawn, and field. The meatys I'm doing about the same as last year and they didn't have a lot of fat on them. Although I let them out (most days) they don't go very far, I think they are vampire chickens, they don't care for the sun. I don't have a coop for them, the goats got that one, so they stay in the tractor at night. When I open the tractor then the hens go on a raiding party, and 2 of them just hate meatys and hang around beating them up. As far as the FF it's been plenty warm, maybe it's the feed I'm using, or maybe it is ok and I just don't know it, just didn't look like the pics. Can't hurt to feed it to them, it was started mon afternoon so it's as done as it ever will be. Bee if they were yours what crude protein level feed would you finish with another 4-5-6 weeks and they will be in the freezer.

Walt
PS thanks for your help as always

 

[Triple Willow]

@Bee... how is the finger today?

 

[Triple Willow]

@Walt... my pullets just started laying the first of August at 19 weeks. Some days they lay really good and some days like you, it will be 3 eggs from 9 pullets -and yep that can be frustrating. I don't want them all laying every day but I hope they will level out one of these days to at least 6 out of 9 most days. My younger bunch should be getting started in 2-3 weeks or so. Getting that first egg was just as exciting to me as when they hatched out!

What do you guys do with your extra eggs? Sell them?

Forgot to add that all of mine layed except one yesterday- a nice surprise! First time that has happened.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Well, speaking of our laying hens...

My husky got to one of my girls today... My favorite of my Golden Girls, Tender. I was stupid and was in and out of the pen all morning setting it up so the new chicks would have somewhere to hide from hawks and the adult flock members in the pen and forgot to close it when I let the dogs out. She went VERY quickly and was happy when she went at least. I didn't hear anything, I just looked out and both dogs were mouthing something brown and fluffy on the ground... She had been eating grass when she went and didn't even have time to swallow it all the way... They completely crushed her rib cage and shoulders in one blow I think. I found tiny puncture marks and lots of broken ribs, not the big tear where they started to chomp on her a little. Definitely the killing bite. :\

I guess now I have a reason to try making coq au vin... If anyone has a good recipe...

It rather seemed a bit like fate, though. I was running out of space in the coop, wondering how worth while feeding all five hens through winter was and how we didn't need five eggs a day come spring... And here I have just hatched out a batch of chicks. (They are hatching right now.) Well, now I have room in my coop again, lower feed requirements through winter and I won't be getting five eggs a day anymore for sure!

 

[Chad Cool]

Quote:
That is what I meant 1/2 Gallon of buttermilk. I also plann on doing my FF the way you do yours.