Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[bbdal]

Two questions:
1: My ff just started having a gray film/spots on the top and a strong smell- sometimes stinky and sometimes like bread. Should I be concerned? We have been fermenting for a few weeks and it has not done this until recently. We did change to 2 big storage tubs instead of 5 gallon buckets. I wouldn't hink that would make a difference. I am wonderin if this is true fermentation and we just haven't seen this until recently. It never had much of a smell or film before. Should I scrape the top, dump it out, mix it up, or add something to it?
2: I have noticed several responses talking about dry weight vs fermented weight. We feed by weight so which weight do most of you go by? I ferment whole oats, whole wheat, whole milo, and whole flax. I then mix that with sprouted lentils and the dry mix of nutribalancer and calcium.

Thanks!

 

[RedRidge]

2: I have noticed several responses talking about dry weight vs fermented weight. We feed by weight so which weight do most of you go by? I ferment whole oats, whole wheat, whole milo, and whole flax. I then mix that with sprouted lentils and the dry mix of nutribalancer and calcium.

Thanks!

I feed by weight.
To get REALLY accurate weigh out exactly 1 pound of what you are fermenting and ferment it in a bucket all by itself. The next day, drain... then weigh the contents.
Now you have your ratio.
For instance... my ratio is 2.25
For dry feeding I feed 3 parts grains (what I now ferment) to 1 part premix (nutribalancer, fish meal, etc).
So... for every 2.25 x 3 lbs = 6.75 lbs of FF I add 1 lb of premix.

This is exactly what mine is... but used round numbers to demonstrate how to calculate...
Make sense?

 

[bbdal]

I feed by weight.
To get REALLY accurate weigh out exactly 1 pound of what you are fermenting and ferment it in a bucket all by itself.  The next day, drain... then weigh the contents.
Now you have your ratio.
For instance... my ratio is 2.25
For dry feeding I feed 3 parts grains (what I now ferment) to 1 part premix (nutribalancer, fish meal, etc).
So... for every 2.25 x 3 lbs = 6.75 lbs of FF I add 1 lb of premix.

This is exactly what mine is... but used round numbers to demonstrate how to calculate...
Make sense?

Thanks for the explanation. One more question though...if a chicken requires x amount of feed. Do you give that in dry weight multiplied by the ratio or in the ff weight?

 

[RedRidge]

Quote: I can only answer that question "relatively".
Meaning relative to what other kinds of management practices you have.
Mine eat a lot less when they are free ranging.

That said... I have "heard" that overall they will eat "less" FF under the same circumstances. I am assuming that means if they usually eat .33 lb/day of dry (the equivalent divided dry with my 3:1 ratio is .2475 grains plus .0825 premix) that they will eat "less" than the equivalent of that in FF (which would be less than (.2475 x 2.25) + .0825 = .639 lbs/day of FF). So by weight if they eat less than double, then I figure they are consuming less for the same (or likely more and better) digestible nutrition.

For me, the real test will be this coming January... that's when I know just how much everyone eats on a daily basis because they aren't free ranging and I have no baby chicks. You've probably figured out I'm pretty anal about my numbers, so you can bet I'll track their consumption through the winter and have a much more accurate idea instead of just a guess.

Long answer to your question... hopefully someone who has been feeding FF longer than I have and who doesn't free range can answer more accurately.
The problem during free range season is that they eat so little if any anyway. I am only feeding chicks and confined broodys right now... everyone else forages.

 

[bbdal]

I can only answer that question "relatively".
Meaning relative to what other kinds of management practices you have.
Mine eat a lot less when they are free ranging. 

That said... I have "heard" that overall they will eat "less" FF under the same circumstances.  I am assuming that means if they usually eat .33 lb/day of dry (the equivalent divided dry with my 3:1 ratio is .2475 grains plus .0825 premix)  that they will eat "less" than the equivalent of that in FF (which would be less than (.2475 x 2.25) + .0825 = .639 lbs/day of FF).  So by weight if they eat less than double, then I figure they are consuming less for the same (or likely more and better) digestible nutrition.

For me, the real test will be this coming January... that's when I know just how much everyone eats on a daily basis because they aren't free ranging and I have no baby chicks.  You've probably figured out I'm pretty anal about my numbers, so you can bet I'll track their consumption through the winter and have a much more accurate idea instead of just a guess.

Long answer to your question... hopefully someone who has been feeding FF longer than I have and who doesn't free range can answer more accurately.
The problem during free range season is that they eat so little if any anyway.  I am only feeding chicks and confined broodys right now... everyone else forages.

Ours free range too but they wait at the back door if they think I am bring food to them. I know they are getting plenty right now. I guess my situation will be different also come winter, even though we will plant some winter crops for them. I also feed our pigs ff and we have just moved them out to pasture so they now have oats, wheat, grasses, clover, turnips, etc planted in their pasture so they too are getting to forage now also. But, before we moved them to pasture, all they ate was what we gave them. Both the pigs and chicks clean up the food in no time. Not sure if they just love ff that much or if they are that hungry.

So, you don't supplement yours with feed at all when they forage? I should probably feed ours less so they will forage more. After they eat ff, they tend to be lazy for a little while.

 

[Costa Rica Art]

I have about 140 birds now and they are fed about 6oz of feed each per day (about 53 lbs per day). I have to feed in the mornings because of mice getting into their feeders at night. I guess I don't know how you force them to free range.

I open the coop before sunup and leave it open all day. Perhaps something like 30+ minutes after sunup I put out the FF trough, the flock comes and eats their fill them go to foraging around the yard again. Today it was raining hard, the flock was both out in the rain foraging and in the coop. There is some FF left in the trough for them when they head out in the morning. They do not go to the trough first but run out into the yard flapping their wings at a full run. They may or may not come right back to the feeder trough but a few will come and peck and go about foraging. Even after I put out the fresh FF they don't all just eat and eat, some will be there eating while the others are out and about. These are a mixed bred of birds except for the meaties which are supposed to of the CX breed. With the dry coop and deep litter they are dry when they come out in the mornings. They forage, gobble table scraps, dust themselves when the find dry dirt and will spend some time under the bushes rain or shine. Why yours won't forage is beyond me.

 

[Triple Willow]

Because I can raise them for a longer period, they have more flavor and more texture..much like a DP bird, only more meat.  I do have a farm dog that runs in the same territory as the birds, though his boundaries do not cover more than a little over half an acre.  The birds range far out from that area but the combination of a murder of crows in residence, the presence of the dog and humans outside working in the yard seems to keep the birds pretty safe.  A local grey fox tries to get a nip now and again on his scheduled route past the meadow but the vigilance of the birds and the dog seem to keep him in check. 

He is not a LGD breed, just a chocolate lab/border collie mutt that was raised with a LGD breed and took up her habits of running off low flying, large birds and killing any preds smaller than him...except that quick fox.  He hasn't gotten any birds yet, nor have the local coyote pack and black bears, so Jake must be sufficient to protect the birds.  I don't lock or shut any pop doors on my coop..this is open 24/7.  We are surrounded by woods miles deep, so preds are aplenty but they don't take a chance on Jake. 

Stray dogs are eliminated if they cannot be caught and returned to their owners.  If they return to the property after being returned to the owners, they are then eliminated for good. 

Sounds like you have a great system and a great dog. Thanks for your contribution on the website. I like reading the info you provide.

Oh the crows! I have some that live close by. I bought a "crow call" with hopes of drawing them in closer. There is a local hawk that lives in the same treeline. I have witnessed them keep him in check! lol

 

[RedRidge]

So, you don't supplement yours with feed at all when they forage? I should probably feed ours less so they will forage more. After they eat ff, they tend to be lazy for a little while.

I suspect you answered your own question here... when and if I feed the free range flock depends totally on time of year, weather, and availability of an older, experienced maremma (which affects how many groups and how far I can free range). I have plenty of room for them to forage when the season is right. They actually forage 9-10 months of the year. But of course early spring and late fall there is less available, so I provide more supplement. This time of year they get nothing except maybe a handful of BSF in the evening if for some reason I want them in the coop a little earlier than dusk - they always come running for BSF.

Yes, mine are like babies... full tummies make for naps. Even if I'm supplementing the free rangers, I don't ever feed them in the morning when I feed baby chicks. It is usually early spring or late fall and they get fed late afternoon that time of year.

I lost an older maremma post-op a few weeks ago - she threw a clot.

We been regrouping ever since... so I currently have only 3 maremma. I will breed a litter this fall or next spring as I really need a 4th. In the meantime, the 7 yr old maremma is over with the chickens now. I waited too long to move her after loosing my old girl and a hawk had a field day in my hen house - I lost 2 chickens and had one severally injured. Turkey vultures and hawks are very quick to take advantage of no lgd around here. Turkey vultures will take down newborn live calves. My best farm asset is my maremma - I love them to death and sometimes forget how much I depend on them until one isn't around any more.

 

[Triple Willow]

I suspect you answered your own question here... when and if I feed the free range flock depends totally on time of year, weather, and availability of an older, experienced maremma (which affects how many groups and how far I can free range).  I have plenty of room for them to forage when the season is right.  They actually forage 9-10 months of the year.  But of course early spring and late fall there is less available, so I provide more supplement.  This time of year they get nothing except maybe a handful of BSF in the evening if for some reason I want them in the coop a little earlier than dusk - they always come running for BSF. 
Yes, mine are like babies... full tummies make for naps.   Even if I'm supplementing the free rangers, I don't ever feed them in the morning when I feed baby chicks.  It is usually early spring or late fall and they get fed late afternoon that time of year.

I lost an older maremma post-op a few weeks ago - she threw a clot.    We been regrouping ever since... so I currently have only 3 maremma.  I will breed a litter this fall or next spring as I really need a 4th.  In the meantime, the 7 yr old maremma is over with the chickens now.  I waited too long to move her after loosing my old girl and a hawk had a field day in my hen house - I lost 2 chickens and had one severally injured.  Turkey vultures and hawks are very quick to take advantage of no lgd around here.   Turkey vultures will take down newborn live calves.  My best farm asset is my maremma - I love them to death and sometimes forget how much I depend on them until one isn't around any more. 

Would you mind telling us what you usually go through to get one of your pups to the point of being a trustworthy finished dog? Do the adult dogs teach the pups? do you have to do a lot of training yourself? Do you have to keep the pups away from the chickens until they are older? I need a lgd but I want to go about it the right way instead of messing up and creating a problem I don't already have. Do you have experience with the other breeds and how do they compare? Thank you very much.

 

[RedRidge]

Would you mind telling us what you usually go through to get one of your pups to the point of being a trustworthy finished dog? Do the adult dogs teach the pups? do you have to do a lot of training yourself? Do you have to keep the pups away from the chickens until they are older? I need a lgd but I want to go about it the right way instead of messing up and creating a problem I don't already have. Do you have experience with the other breeds and how do they compare? Thank you very much.

Wow... those are pretty loaded questions... LOL
The one thing I tell people all the time is that a good lgd needs "guidance" the first 12-18 months of their life... not training.
This was a hard thing for me to realize as my background was in "training" dogs.
Good lgd's have the instinct to guard and protect, they simply needs guidance from their owners as to what the boundaries are (not literally, but figuratively).

Pups benefit tremendously from being exposed to poultry at a very young age. Hens (and roosters too) rarely put up with the shenanigans of a pup, so the pup learns quickly that they shouldn't be messed with. I'm talking... 6 or 8 week old pups. The exposure at that age lets them know chickens exist prior to the pup becoming a potential harm to them. So before that happens by 10 -12 weeks of age (depending on the pup), they no longer have access to the chickens again until they are through "adolescence". Usually at least 18 months old.

With multiple guardians here my oldest usually has charge of the chickens. As they age they slow down and chickens are much easier to keep up with than lambs.

Training and guidance...
Mine are taught just basic manners... "off" meaning do not jump on humans, "sit" required for having their food bowl set down, "get back" meaning this gate I'm opening isn't for you. They also learn to "kinda walk on a leash" - as in, just don't drag me. This comes in handy sometimes, although I think mine have been on a leash a total of twice each. LOL

Guidance is much more important... timing is critical so "being there" when something begins to get out of hand is the key. The most common problem with pups (usually sometime between 6-12 months) is chasing. My male chased a few times when he was about a year old. I saw it, growled "NO" in a deep voice, and he sat and immediately looked remorseful. My female at about 7 months old began to chase and would run right past me and totally ignore me. This didn't happen for long... she got put with the rams for 30 days (who would NOT permit chasing)... then we tried again. Once she learned to listen she never chased again. Both dogs were totally dependable by a year of age.

Breed... I chose Maremma because they are not a perimeter dog like pyrs... they bond with the stock more than with their property. Pyrs tend to guard an area... maremma bond with their livestock more. They are also exceptionally intuitive. Not to say other breeds aren't. I had guardian donkeys prior to maremma. I have never had another breed of lgd. After doing years of research it became evident to me that they were the breed I needed.

Don't know if that helps at all... but....