Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Demosthine]

If one spends a little time with a search engine and doesn't mind swimming through many pages of scientific jargon, you can find a lot of information on how great lactobacillus is for the prevention of coccidiosis in poultry.  Here is just one such study but there are more and more varied studies done on cocciosis and probiotics of lactobacillus as a preventative.



And this study was done with a dried probiotic feed mix, not a living, active lactobacilli throughout the feed in large numbers as it is in the FF...imagine how much better the fermented feed is than the probios mixed by a pharmacy. 

You know, Bee, it never ceases to amaze me, what information you pull up so readily. The benefits of fermented feed seem to be endless,combined with the deep litter method, and I feel better and better about how I raised my flock. Much of it can be accredited to you.

With the exception of the one unexplained loss in my very first batch, at about a month old, I've had no other strange illnesses. My other losses were from a drowning in the pool and heat exposure from my broilers. So thank you, for giving such excellent advice. It had made a stress free experience out of raising my flock. I currently have three hens, two cockerels and nine pullets. Oh, and my three turkeys for the upcoming holidays. Aside from tossing them daily scraps and the once daily feeding, they do their chicken thing. And yet, the are still the best animals I've owned.

But for those who have followed me, you know they are really my 15-month old daughter's flock, not mine...

 

[RoseMarie1]

Gotta tell you guys something.

Back when my chicks were really young I used to feed them plain yogurt mixed in with their starter as a treat once a week. They dearly loved the stuff and would eat it until it was gone. Well I had frozen some of their chick starter from when they were little and had forgotten about it. It was powder and they couldn't eat it so I poured it into a ziplock and thought I'd mix the yogurt with it so it would be eaten. So today it was so hot I decided to give them some yogurt with the starter. Got it out and mixed it all up and poured it into their bowls and they dove in. Then when they realized it wasn't their ff food some just left and went to eating grass. Some of them did eat a little of it but I wound up pouring the rest of it out because they never did eat it all. But then later I brought out the ff when it was evening time and man here they went. They dearly love their ff and every time I walk out there now if I haven't fed them that morning, they follow me around wanting their ff. It's so funny because every where I go they will follow. I wanted them to free range before they got their food though because once they get it, then they don't want to free range because they're full. spoiled chickens! lol
ALSO I washed their poop hammock today on the clothes line. Then it started raining so it got wet and I didn't get to put it back under their roost before it was time for them to hit it. When they got up on their roost this evening they KNEW something wasn't right because they kept looking back. lol they're not used to seeing the tin back there because the hammock covers it up. They don't miss NOTHING!

 

[Triple Willow]

Once there is a coccidiosis outbreak at a location (farm/yard), what is the future of raising chickens there? Should new birds never be added to the flock that survived coccidiosis? Should new birds never even be brought to the location? Should the whole flock be destroyed then after a time start all over? Could new birds be added to the existing flock and treated for coccidiosis should they develope it like the original birds did? There is a lot to consider.

 

[Jewelwing]

Hi

I just joined Backyard Chickens and I haven't read my required reading yet, but I'm getting my first new chicks in a day or two (they were mailed today!), and I have some questions about feeding them fermented food. I've never had any poultry before, but I've had lots of other pets. You all have convinced me that fermenting their food is absolutely the way to go. I've read a lot of the pages on this thread, but I still have some very basic questions (and no time to read all the posts!) about starting new chicks on it.

I bought organic (soy and corn free - not sure I care about that, but it was organic and I do care about that!) starter food from Scratch & Peck Feeds, but I have no idea how much chicks eat, or whether I need to add scratch (not sure what that is). Do I need to give them chick grit before I supplement this food with scraps (and when is it ok to start doing that)? I'm getting 10 chicks - five different breeds, all for eggs only (Australorp, Brahma, Faverolle, Sussex, and Welsummer).

I started the food fermenting tonight, so please tell me if I'm doing fine, or if I need to do something differently. I put 1 cup of starter feed into a 1/2 gallon plastic container, covered it with filtered water, and added 2 Tbls of UP/ACV. I covered it with a paper towel, and I've stirred it a couple of times and added more water as needed to keep the food underwater.

I have a trough feeder in the awesome brooder (if I do say so myself!) that my daughter and I built. It's 20 sq ft, has 20" tall sides and has a removable top of 1/2" hardware cloth.

Please tell me if there's something else I should be doing with the food, and how much I should expect them to be eating. I want to ferment enough food for them, but I don't want to do so much that it goes bad before they can eat it. I realize that if they come Wednesday (I don't think they'll get here Tuesday), there won't have been enough time for the food to really ferment, but I was hoping the ACV would speed things up, and even so, it's better to feed them food that's been soaked in water than dry food. Right?

Thanks for any and all advice!!

 

[Demosthine]

Once there is a coccidiosis outbreak at a location (farm/yard), what is the future of raising chickens there? Should new birds never be added to the flock that survived coccidiosis? Should new birds never even be brought to the location? Should the whole flock be destroyed then after a time start all over? Could new birds be added to the existing flock and treated for coccidiosis should they develope it like the original birds did? There is a lot to consider.

From my understanding, Cocci is a parasite that is very commonly found nearly everywhere. Virtually every chicken is exposed to it to some extent or another. Think of it as being similar to Staphylococcus (Staph Infections). It is a bacteria that is found on virtually everyone's skin and never poses a problem. Occasionally, it will get out of hand and become an "infection." Cocci appears to be the same way. It is transmitted by wild birds, other flocks, clothing, shoes, equipment and contaminated food or water. There are nine known forms of the cocci bacteria. Obviously, with the wild birds being involved in the spread of this disease, there is no perfect method of preventing it. Likewise, there is no reason to destroy the flock, start over or even prevent ever introducing knew birds at that location.

There are several things that can be done to prevent this. First, you can either vaccinate day-old chicks or provide medicated chick starter. Allegedly, providing both the vaccination and the medicated feed negate each other, rendering the chicks susceptible to the disease, but that just doesn't seem logically possible. Of course, as with any disease or parasite, providing clean and dry living areas is vital. Moist and warm conditions are breeding grounds for bad bacteria. Always ensure adequate ventilation to ensure these clean, dry conditions exist.


That being said, the single best method for controlling cocci is by prevention. Maintain an extremely healthy flock, give a properly nutritious diet and clean coops or runs. Ironically, the deep litter method appears to attract large amounts of beneficial bacteria that force out the bad bacteria like cocci. It maintaining the deep litter method, however, you must ensure adequate dry compost material (leaves, grass, pine shavings, etc.) that will properly complement the fecal matter from your chickens. It is not simply a huge pile of poop.

As Bee mentioned, the higher acidity of the fermented feed should aid in the prevention of cocci. If you have exposed your flock to fermented feed and they have the appropriate levels of gastrointestinal flora, this particular disease should not pose a problem. Fermented feed has a pH of approximately 4.5, which is considered "extremely acidic" by most standards. Distilled white vinegar has an average pH of 3.0 and it's considered a common disinfectant. It's even been scientifically proven to kill the flu virus. Common sense leads us to the conclusion that fermented feed would prevent a host of numerous bacteria as well, although not quite as well as vinegar. Personally, I get a bit of a burning sensation on my skin when I splash some on my hands. I may be a bit more sensitive to this than others, so your results may vary. But it's a dietary philosophy that dates back countless years in human culture, most notably in the Chinese and German cultures. Think sauerkraut and soy sauce.


Personally, I think cocci is overblown from a commercial standpoint. I think that a combination of poor flock husbandry and commercialism have led to this overly common concern where every death (or a high percentage) is attributed to cocci, regardless of the actual cause of death. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Demosthine]

Hi

I just joined Backyard Chickens and I haven't read my required reading yet, but I'm getting my first new chicks in a day or two (they were mailed today!), and I have some questions about feeding them fermented food. I've never had any poultry before, but I've had lots of other pets. You all have convinced me that fermenting their food is absolutely the way to go. I've read a lot of the pages on this thread, but I still have some very basic questions (and no time to read all the posts!) about starting new chicks on it.

I bought organic (soy and corn free - not sure I care about that, but it was organic and I do care about that!) starter food from Scratch & Peck Feeds, but I have no idea how much chicks eat, or whether I need to add scratch (not sure what that is). Do I need to give them chick grit before I supplement this food with scraps (and when is it ok to start doing that)? I'm getting 10 chicks - five different breeds, all for eggs only (Australorp, Brahma, Faverolle, Sussex, and Welsummer).

I started the food fermenting tonight, so please tell me if I'm doing fine, or if I need to do something differently. I put 1 cup of starter feed into a 1/2 gallon plastic container, covered it with filtered water, and added 2 Tbls of UP/ACV. I covered it with a paper towel, and I've stirred it a couple of times and added more water as needed to keep the food underwater.

I have a trough feeder in the awesome brooder (if I do say so myself!) that my daughter and I built. It's 20 sq ft, has 20" tall sides and has a removable top of 1/2" hardware cloth.

Please tell me if there's something else I should be doing with the food, and how much I should expect them to be eating. I want to ferment enough food for them, but I don't want to do so much that it goes bad before they can eat it. I realize that if they come Wednesday (I don't think they'll get here Tuesday), there won't have been enough time for the food to really ferment, but I was hoping the ACV would speed things up, and even so, it's better to feed them food that's been soaked in water than dry food. Right?

Thanks for any and all advice!!

First off, welcome to the Forum and congratulations on your soon-to-be new chicks. They truly do change your way of life in many ways. Theoretically, the commercial feeds including your starter foods are designed to allow complete digestion without the addition of grit. When you add additional feed, such as table scraps, you will need to provide grit. I found that the easiest way to do this in my environment is to allow them to free-range for several hours a day. Yes, depending on the weather, this is completely acceptable for day-old chicks. One batch was outside the second day after I purchased them and they've absolutely thrived. As long as you have grit or free-ranging available, you can start with the table scraps whenever you choose. It works far better if you have older hens to help them, but mine managed just fine. They are surprisingly smart creatures.

In terms of fermenting, it sounds like you are doing things just fine. Don't over complicate things or think them through too much. Just remember, proper air flow and proper coverage of water will give you an excellent fermentation. The rest, like the double bucket setup, is just a bonus. Again, depending on your conditions, it is entirely possible to start fermenting in the few days before you get them. Don't underestimate the power of the fermentation process. Many quote 24 to 48 hours as standard times, and you're within that range. The soaked food is better than dry food, too.

There is no telling how much your flock of chicks will eat. It will be an experiment. I would start out with a half-cup, fed three or four times a day, for that amount of birds and adjust accordingly. I'm sure others will disagree, but that worked well for all my batches of chicks so far. Others insist on ensuring they have a constant supply of food. Again, this will depend on your ability and willingness to allow them to forage and free-range as well. Remember the K.I.S.S. method. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Don't overthink things.


Oh, and scratch is usually a feed that is high in corn content. The higher caloric content allows them to maintain a higher body temperature during cold weather, so it should not be fed or fed in minor amounts, during summer. Consider it a winter treat and nothing more. There are more nutritious and worthy treats for the rest of the year, like mealworms and table scraps. Just remember they need grit, whether it's for scratch or bugs.

Good luck!

 

[Beekissed]

Hi

I just joined Backyard Chickens and I haven't read my required reading yet, but I'm getting my first new chicks in a day or two (they were mailed today!), and I have some questions about feeding them fermented food. I've never had any poultry before, but I've had lots of other pets. You all have convinced me that fermenting their food is absolutely the way to go. I've read a lot of the pages on this thread, but I still have some very basic questions (and no time to read all the posts!) about starting new chicks on it.

I bought organic (soy and corn free - not sure I care about that, but it was organic and I do care about that!) starter food from Scratch & Peck Feeds, but I have no idea how much chicks eat, or whether I need to add scratch (not sure what that is). Do I need to give them chick grit before I supplement this food with scraps (and when is it ok to start doing that)? I'm getting 10 chicks - five different breeds, all for eggs only (Australorp, Brahma, Faverolle, Sussex, and Welsummer).

I started the food fermenting tonight, so please tell me if I'm doing fine, or if I need to do something differently. I put 1 cup of starter feed into a 1/2 gallon plastic container, covered it with filtered water, and added 2 Tbls of UP/ACV. I covered it with a paper towel, and I've stirred it a couple of times and added more water as needed to keep the food underwater.

I have a trough feeder in the awesome brooder (if I do say so myself!) that my daughter and I built. It's 20 sq ft, has 20" tall sides and has a removable top of 1/2" hardware cloth.

Please tell me if there's something else I should be doing with the food, and how much I should expect them to be eating. I want to ferment enough food for them, but I don't want to do so much that it goes bad before they can eat it. I realize that if they come Wednesday (I don't think they'll get here Tuesday), there won't have been enough time for the food to really ferment, but I was hoping the ACV would speed things up, and even so, it's better to feed them food that's been soaked in water than dry food. Right?

Thanks for any and all advice!!

You can throw a shovel full of your run/yard soil in their bedding and it will serve two purposes...it will provide them some grit and also give them a chance to form natural immunities to the bacteria and such in your soil.

I wouldn't start thinking of giving scraps until they are out of the brooder..it's just cleaner and easier that way. Some good breeds you've selected, BTW!

I think you've been a little conservative in your amount that you have mixed, as you will be surprised at how quickly chicks can eat up that amount. You really can't mix too much because it really can't "go bad" before they eat it. For 10 chicks I'd keep a running mix of a quart or two of feed going at all times.

I'd advise feeding twice a day and only what they can clean up in an hour or so. They will pick at the residue left behind until you feed a meal once again. Just watch the chicks and they will show you if you need to feed more..or less..with each feeding. You'll know by how much is left in the feeder when you feed again...too much left behind that has had time to get dried and crusty, cut back. Picked clean? Increase it a little. Sort of like feeding your own kids...

If it is sitting in ambient temps of 70* or greater, it should be well on its way to fermentation by then. You don't have to keep the feed under water as many claim...I never do. It's much too soupy, especially for chicks, if you mix it like that. You'll want that feed to be a peanut butter or mortar consistency for easy feeding and eating by the birds.

If you are stirring at least once a day, the feed doesn't have to be submersed under water to keep well moistened and still fermenting properly. Here's two different pics of feed at the water levels I usually maintain...the first one looks more watery because it has more whole grains in the mix(this is actually more water than I usually use, even for this type of feed mix)..... and the second one looks less because it's all finely ground layer mash...the second one shows the feed pulled over to one side so you can visualize the water level but you usually cannot see the water unless you stir it.

 

[Triple Willow]

From my understanding, Cocci is a parasite that is very commonly found nearly everywhere.  Virtually every chicken is exposed to it to some extent or another.  Think of it as being similar to Staphylococcus (Staph Infections).  It is a bacteria that is found on virtually everyone's skin and never poses a problem.  Occasionally, it will get out of hand and become an "infection."  Cocci appears to be the same way.  It is transmitted by wild birds, other flocks, clothing, shoes, equipment and contaminated food or water.  There are nine known forms of the cocci bacteria.  Obviously, with the wild birds being involved in the spread of this disease, there is no perfect method of preventing it.  Likewise, there is no reason to destroy the flock, start over or even prevent ever introducing knew birds at that location.

There are several things that can be done to prevent this.  First, you can either vaccinate day-old chicks or provide medicated chick starter.  Allegedly, providing both the vaccination and the medicated feed negate each other, rendering the chicks susceptible to the disease, but that just doesn't seem logically possible.  Of course, as with any disease or parasite, providing clean and dry living areas is vital.  Moist and warm conditions are breeding grounds for bad bacteria.  Always ensure adequate ventilation to ensure these clean, dry conditions exist.


That being said, the single best method for controlling cocci is by prevention.  Maintain an extremely healthy flock, give a properly nutritious diet and clean coops or runs.  Ironically, the deep litter method appears to attract large amounts of beneficial bacteria that force out the bad bacteria like cocci.  It maintaining the deep litter method, however, you must ensure adequate dry compost material (leaves, grass, pine shavings, etc.) that will properly complement the fecal matter from your chickens.  It is not simply a huge pile of poop.

As Bee mentioned, the higher acidity of the fermented feed should aid in the prevention of cocci.  If you have exposed your flock to fermented feed and they have the appropriate levels of gastrointestinal flora, this particular disease should not pose a problem.  Fermented feed has a pH of approximately 4.5, which is considered "extremely acidic" by most standards.  Distilled white vinegar has an average pH of 3.0 and it's considered a common disinfectant.  It's even been scientifically proven to kill the flu virus.  Common sense leads us to the conclusion that fermented feed would prevent a host of numerous bacteria as well, although not quite as well as vinegar.  Personally, I get a bit of a burning sensation on my skin when I splash some on my hands.  I may be a bit more sensitive to this than others, so your results may vary.  But it's a dietary philosophy that dates back countless years in human culture, most notably in the Chinese and German cultures.  Think sauerkraut and soy sauce.


Personally, I think cocci is overblown from a commercial standpoint.  I think that a combination of poor flock husbandry and commercialism have led to this overly common concern where every death (or a high percentage) is attributed to cocci, regardless of the actual cause of death.  But that's a discussion for another time.

Thank you for your thoughts on this Demosthine. I agree, fermented foods have been around a long long time and their health benefits are great in humans as well as animals. I sure could eat some kraut right now. ha

 

[Beekissed]

Once there is a coccidiosis outbreak at a location (farm/yard), what is the future of raising chickens there? Should new birds never be added to the flock that survived coccidiosis? Should new birds never even be brought to the location? Should the whole flock be destroyed then after a time start all over? Could new birds be added to the existing flock and treated for coccidiosis should they develope it like the original birds did? There is a lot to consider.

Cocci are inescapable...it's everywhere in the soils of nearly all farms and some type of it is in the bowels of all mammals. It's the level of immunities to it that your livestock have and their living conditions that will enable them to avoid over growths of it in their bodies. Animals kept in pens/runs/paddocks that never give them a chance to be on clean soils are the most susceptible to it,as they are living and eating on soils that carry a heavy fecal load. A heavy fecal load that also carries a heavy cocci or parasite load is just perpetuating and aiding the growth cycle of such things.

You can bet that any flock of chickens carry an acceptable load of cocci in their bodies at all times and thrive well with it...they mostly live and die with cocci in their bowels without you ever knowing it. Same with e.coli, salmonella, etc. These bacteria only begin to affect the animal and the environment when they are subjected to conditions that promote an increase in their numbers and they grow unchecked.

Yes, you can introduce new birds to your flock and their particular pathogens if you do it in such a manner that gives the new birds a small dose so that they can form antibodies against these bacteria. For young chicks, brooding them with some bedding from the large coop mixed into their bedding or even placing a scoop of the run soils in the brooder will give them exposure to these bacteria in small numbers...just enough for them to form antibodies against them.

No, do not destroy your flock...if they survived a cocci infection on their own, they have formed antibodies and the right husbandry can help avoid the conditions of such an overgrowth from happening again. If they survived with the help of meds, then they are back at square one...you can still plan for prevention of cocci outbreaks but you won't ever know if your birds have developed a good enough immune system to survive even a mild overgrowth of the bacteria.

This is why I promote natural husbandry and judicious culling over the use of meds...if you give meds, you may always have to give meds. If you don't ever give meds, it's likely you will never have to give meds. I've never given meds. I've also never had a cocci outbreak in any of my flocks.

You really can't "treat" for coccidiosis as many are finding out this year who have fed medicated feeds or gotten the vaccine and still had quite a few birds die...but you can prepare for the fact of cocci in your animals and prevent any overgrowth in their bodies and coop/soil environment from happening with just good common sense.

Proper us of deep or built up litter in the coop can decrease the cocci load in the coop environment and can do the same for the run if people only knew. I advise everyone to really read up on how to maintain good deep litter in their coops and runs if this is the only place their birds have of being.

There is information out there if one wants to do the work and study on these topics...but avoid information given from those whose target audience is commercial growers. They do not know the best way to manage chickens and never will. Hence our horrible food systems where many millions of birds die daily to illness and poor husbandry in the name of profit.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I am WAY behind on reading this thread and I know that once I post this reply, it will take me to the end so first, I want to remind myself that I have read up to the end of page 594 and need to start tomorrow on page 595.

I'm formulating a new homemade feed, but I'm not sure if it can be fermented. The protein source in the feed will be dehydrated beef liver. Can small pieces of meat go into the FF?

The feed would be
50 lbs wheat
50 lbs oats
8 lbs dried liver
1/2 lb trace mineral salt

I know most commercial feed uses fish meal or bone meal, and this shouldn't be *that* different. I guess another option would be to puree fresh liver and mix it into the fermented grains before feeding.

Thank you! In that case, should I even bother dehydrating the liver? It may be easier to add it pureed, or maybe diced.. any tips on where to get limestone?

I have been pondering this exact same thing and just wanted to ask you how you intend to dry it in bulk like that? I was thinking what I would do is to lightly cook the slices of liver so that they can be easily handled and then run them through a grinder. Then I have been looking into DIY solar dehydrators where I could place them out in the sun, protected by screens and let them dry. We get way more sun here than I actually need and hoped I could use it for something other than sunburn.

Deserthomestead... your spreadsheet has been sent...
Keep in mind that too much wheat can create several problems, so lean heavier towards the oats than the wheat and you should be ok...
Have fun!

Too much wheat can create problems? Would you enlighten me in regard to this please? I feed wheat and I'm curious as to what is considered "too much" and what kind of problems might I be causing in my flock?

I would love be be able to get a spread sheet like you're talking about here but I think I first need to secure a steady supply of organ meat (heart would be more than acceptable but I assumed it would be more expensive than liver. Is this not the case?) as well as some nutribalancer of some sort before actually making a request.