Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[wlhtx]

Yes, very similar dogs!!! (And we love that movie! Almost named ours Hercules after that movie...)

Ha - and yes, those weights are definitely wrong. Females top out around 130 lbs, males between 160-180 lbs, though some breeders are deliberately breeding larger specimens with the intention of breeding super-sized versions over 200 lbs. 160 lbs so far suits me just fine...

They grow so big so fast that they can be somewhat prone to joint issues, but we try to feed ours some natural things that help with that - olive oil, honey, etc. He also eats a lot of eggs.

 

[wlhtx]

My one dog doesn't kill chickens really out of agression. He just starts chasing them then ends up picking them up. He's never torn one up. They probably die of shock or a heart attack really.

Yes! This is what big dog (who's real name is Timba) did. He never tore them up as a puppy, but rather would chase and catch and then literally lick all their feathers off, with them dying somewhere in the midst. He never killed to eat. And some he never caught, but would swat and since he's so big I guess it hurt something inside them and they would die a day or so later. Dang, it would make me so mad... I still get very upset when he chases, but we are getting there. For now, I'm just thrilled that I can rely on him to keep the coons away from my juvie birds at night.

 

[Triple Willow]

Yes! This is what big dog (who's real name is Timba) did. He never tore them up as a puppy, but rather would chase and catch and then literally lick all their feathers off, with them dying somewhere in the midst. He never killed to eat. And some he never caught, but would swat and since he's so big I guess it hurt something inside them and they would die a day or so later. Dang, it would make me so mad... I still get very upset when he chases, but we are getting there. For now, I'm just thrilled that I can rely on him to keep the coons away from my juvie birds at night.

Usually if I am out there my dog won't bother them. Early on I had a coop malfunction due to a storm and a few birds got out. He killed 5 then and I could have killed him! Then one day right in front of me with me yelling at him to stop he went after a pullet. He zoned in on that one pullet and chased her down! I had to chase him down! She survived it thank goodness. I really believe he can learn to leave them alone. I just have to figure out how to get that across to him. He's smarter than me! LOL

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:

I LOVE this line...the picture in my mind is priceless of these crippled little raggedy poodles patrolling the property!

I've heard of the BoerBoels...that is one big hunk of burning love going on there! I can't imagine anyone or anything coming on your property, Wlhtx...that would be a hard dog to train due to the pure size of him, I'm thinking.

A month or so back our neighbor brought a young GSD out for a visit and it was about dusk. She was really spooky shy but not scared..a very beautiful dog. It was clear to me that they had not done any obedience training on her whatsoever but that she was a pretty smart dog judging by her response to certain things.

Well, they wanted to see my newer chickens and so we walked up to the coop and I wasn't thinking a bit about their dog....some of the chickens were in the coop in preparation for hitting the roosts, so I turned on the light so they could see them better....well, that did it! That dog saw the birds and started running toward the coop, which scared the birds and they ran outside...and the dog gave chase. All the while her owners were screaming at the dog, trying to get her to come back..and poor Jake hit the ground like his butt weighed a ton and ducked his head...I started to laugh and told him, "Jake, don't worry! They aren't yelling at you!"

Meanwhile the young GSD came running by me and I caught her by the scruff and brought her to her owners. Made her lie down, which she did. But she was quivering all over with that excitement that live, running and noisy prey animals always bring to young dogs....you could almost see electric sparks shooting off her fur, she was that energized! So her owners held her there~she had no collar, mind you...who goes visiting other people with dogs and livestock that are free ranged and doesn't at least put a collar of some kind on their dog?

I caught up a chicken and brought it to her and when she tried to rise up to meet the bird, I did the Cesar Milan move of lightly jabbing her in the neck and used my "AAATTT!!!" (that's the bad word, by the way) at the same time. She ducked down and turned her head away. Smart dog with a perfect reaction. Then I waited a few moments for her to forget that moment and saw her eyes return to the chickens in the coop...so I turned off the light there so she couldn't visualize them. Then I brought the chicken down to her again and she started to quiver and advance from her position and I repeated the strong word and touch to her neck. She dropped like a stone and turned her head. After that,no matter what I did with the chicken in front of her face or near her body, she would lie quietly and turn her head away. She never once looked at that chicken. Good.

So I put the chicken away and let her get up. Then I turned on the coop light again and she showed an immediate interest in the coop, so I just said the strong word and tone again and she immediately returned to her owners and lay down, turned her head away from the coop. I think I could have trained that dog off of chickens right then and there, given a little more time. She was amazingly responsive to human correction.

All that time the owners just stood there...I couldn't tell if they were mad at me for correcting their dog or what..they never really said, but they left shortly thereafter. I think the dog was smarter than the humans and that could have been the trouble in that case, as the dog learned rather quickly but I know they will take that dog home and not train her any further because they just never train a dog...they tie them up in their yard and expect them to train themselves and then get rid of them, eventually, because they can't do anything with them.

The first time they saw me I was working with Jake on something with the new boundary and they asked me then if I was some kind of dog trainer...I just laughed and told them "no" but I look back on that and wonder~do they think that only trainers train dogs and that owners can't attempt it? Maybe that is their problem? They just are either too lazy to put in any work or they just can't fathom correcting a dog as it might hurt its "feelings"...not sure but I see it all over with people and their pets, that reluctance to train them so that they can live a good life among humans and other animals. Either way, I'd love to have that GSD for a little while and turn her into a good dog..she was super smart!

 

[7acres]

Bee. I am thinking about building an new coop. I have one that is earthen for the floor. One that is elevated with a wooden floor. I saw some discussion on one of the threads about this. Not sure if it was this one or not. What is your opinion of the types and benefits of the one you like the best, if there is one.

On dogs. I am on my second Australian shepherd. I have had a lot of dogs in my life. Deer hounds, squirrel dogs, collie and quite a few Heinz. I think the aus. shep is my favorite. The first one, a female was the best. I have trained them to not leave the property. They would go to the property line and stop, even if I crossed and went out of sight. They stay home and are always there when you return. They are not barkers. When they do, it usually is something out of the normal. Probably the only drawback is that when something is amiss, they go after it and do not bark, so you do not know something is going on. They are territorial, especially when strangers come up and bark then.
My first one was aggressive with any dogs that came up, this one is not as much.

 

[Beekissed]

Those Aussies are one of the smartest breeds, from the studies done. I've seen some amazing Aussie dogs and you are right...they are wonderful on boundaries and not going off the boundaries. I've seen them stay in the back of a truck all day, just on the say so of the owner. They are uncanny smart...almost human like.

I used to love a wood floor coop because I used to clean out the poop and it was easier with a wood floor...but now that I use deep litter, I'm really appreciating the soil floor coops I've had and the one I currently have. It regulates the litter more because I get that wonderful moisture when it rains that is so needed for the whole process. In my wood floored coop I had to wait a good bit and build the litter pretty deep to retain that level of moisture but with the ground water/moisture I can get some good moisture in my litter without having to build a "pack" to get it.

I know people will be mystified by this description because they've been taught that moisture in bedding leads to molds and bacterial growth but I'm talking about moisture that is wicked towards the bottom of the bedding pack and encourages the decomposition of the materials there, as well as making it more habitable for bugs, worms, beneficial bacteria to carry on that composting.

I'll describe what happens in my soil floor coop with deep litter after much rains. The litter all around the edge of the coop is really soaked and the middle of the coop is dryer. Within a couple of days of a hard rain, I notice the corners and edges of the coop have been shoveled out like I have a town of gophers...this doesn't happen as much when I have dry weather. All the wet bedding in those corners gets tossed into the middle of the coop in the chicken's search for the bugs that have suddenly been attracted to the wet bedding. This tells me that it requires that moisture level to attract those extra insects.

As the wet bedding is piled into the middle of the coop, it puts moisture in the dry parts and the litter pack grows deeper there...the moisture and deeper litter there then seems to attract more bugs, because about 3-4 days after this process, I notice the birds are digging into the litter at the middle of the coop...throwing the bedding back to the edges once again. Then they've let the soils there dry out a little and they then dust in them..like it is some kind of chicken ritual, because they have multiple other dusting spots from which to choose outside, but they just want to dust in that substrata in the bedding. It makes me wonder if that soil, so rich in nutrients and beneficial microbes, is somehow a more desirable soil than their regular fare. I know it is more moist and cool, if not fine in particles like their regular dusting material and maybe they just need that variety.

Now, I might add that my coop has the most ventilation of any coop I've had previously, so my bedding dries out more quickly than most and I do encourage a high level of ventilation with the use of deep litter if the results are to be optimal~though mine dries out a little too quickly for my liking at times. But then it rains and makes it all better once again.

One benefit of the wooden floor coop is that predators cannot dig into it. If you have dog protection outside all the time, this is a moot point for those with a soil floor coop, but I saw where a fellow dug a trench and put his foundations down into the soil of the coop before building, thus discouraging that level of digging. One soil floor coop I had was build on concrete foundations, so digging just didn't seem to happen.

One disadvantage of the wood floor coop is that they can deteriorate over time, depending on the wood used. The soil floor never deteriorates. The wood flooring provides better insulation against the cold in the winter~though deep litter will take care of that issue. The soil floor coop provides cooling from the ground in the summer and more hunting and foraging prospects for confined birds, particularly if deep litter is used.

Birds have a softer landing in a soil floor when dismounting from roosts, but the same can be achieved in both coops with the use of deep litter.

In the end, whatever suits your husbandry style will be the best design for you. If I were to build another coop, it would have a soil flooring and not wood...and that would also save some money.

 

[armorfirelady]

I agree with Bee & here is an example of how beneficial the deep litter is during the winter. This picture was taken in December when the ground outside was frozen solid with temps in the teens. And yes this earthworm is alive


The soil was easily broken up when I stirred the DL

 

[RoseMarie1]

I LOVE this line...the picture in my mind is priceless of these crippled little raggedy poodles patrolling the property!

I've heard of the BoerBoels...that is one big hunk of burning love going on there! I can't imagine anyone or anything coming on your property, Wlhtx...that would be a hard dog to train due to the pure size of him, I'm thinking.

A month or so back our neighbor brought a young GSD out for a visit and it was about dusk. She was really spooky shy but not scared..a very beautiful dog. It was clear to me that they had not done any obedience training on her whatsoever but that she was a pretty smart dog judging by her response to certain things.

Well, they wanted to see my newer chickens and so we walked up to the coop and I wasn't thinking a bit about their dog....some of the chickens were in the coop in preparation for hitting the roosts, so I turned on the light so they could see them better....well, that did it! That dog saw the birds and started running toward the coop, which scared the birds and they ran outside...and the dog gave chase. All the while her owners were screaming at the dog, trying to get her to come back..and poor Jake hit the ground like his butt weighed a ton and ducked his head...I started to laugh and told him, "Jake, don't worry! They aren't yelling at you!"

Meanwhile the young GSD came running by me and I caught her by the scruff and brought her to her owners. Made her lie down, which she did. But she was quivering all over with that excitement that live, running and noisy prey animals always bring to young dogs....you could almost see electric sparks shooting off her fur, she was that energized! So her owners held her there~she had no collar, mind you...who goes visiting other people with dogs and livestock that are free ranged and doesn't at least put a collar of some kind on their dog?

I caught up a chicken and brought it to her and when she tried to rise up to meet the bird, I did the Cesar Milan move of lightly jabbing her in the neck and used my "AAATTT!!!" (that's the bad word, by the way) at the same time. She ducked down and turned her head away. Smart dog with a perfect reaction. Then I waited a few moments for her to forget that moment and saw her eyes return to the chickens in the coop...so I turned off the light there so she couldn't visualize them. Then I brought the chicken down to her again and she started to quiver and advance from her position and I repeated the strong word and touch to her neck. She dropped like a stone and turned her head. After that,no matter what I did with the chicken in front of her face or near her body, she would lie quietly and turn her head away. She never once looked at that chicken. Good.

So I put the chicken away and let her get up. Then I turned on the coop light again and she showed an immediate interest in the coop, so I just said the strong word and tone again and she immediately returned to her owners and lay down, turned her head away from the coop. I think I could have trained that dog off of chickens right then and there, given a little more time. She was amazingly responsive to human correction.

All that time the owners just stood there...I couldn't tell if they were mad at me for correcting their dog or what..they never really said, but they left shortly thereafter. I think the dog was smarter than the humans and that could have been the trouble in that case, as the dog learned rather quickly but I know they will take that dog home and not train her any further because they just never train a dog...they tie them up in their yard and expect them to train themselves and then get rid of them, eventually, because they can't do anything with them.

The first time they saw me I was working with Jake on something with the new boundary and they asked me then if I was some kind of dog trainer...I just laughed and told them "no" but I look back on that and wonder~do they think that only trainers train dogs and that owners can't attempt it? Maybe that is their problem? They just are either too lazy to put in any work or they just can't fathom correcting a dog as it might hurt its "feelings"...not sure but I see it all over with people and their pets, that reluctance to train them so that they can live a good life among humans and other animals. Either way, I'd love to have that GSD for a little while and turn her into a good dog..she was super smart!

OR just passive people Bee. My husband is like that. We have the most hard headed dog on the planet because he just will not make him mind. All I have to do is look at the dog and he will turn away.He just does not see the point in listening to what works and what don't work in training them right. He's just so passive and you can't be that way with a dog at times they WILL need adjusted for lack of a better word. I took him out with me when my chicks were young and started working with him because he is JUST LIKE that dog you described. IF it runs, he will go after it because that's what hubby taught him to do with the squirrels. So I'd take him out with me and just sit with the chicks all turned out to free range when they were young and if he even looked in their direction I'd tell him no no. IF one started running and he'd look, I'd say no no and now he doesn't even act like they're in the yard. It's like he doesn't even see them.

 

[Beekissed]

OR just passive people Bee. My husband is like that. We have the most hard headed dog on the planet because he just will not make him mind. All I have to do is look at the dog and he will turn away.He just does not see the point in listening to what works and what don't work in training them right. He's just so passive and you can't be that way with a dog at times they WILL need adjusted for lack of a better word. I took him out with me when my chicks were young and started working with him because he is JUST LIKE that dog you described. IF it runs, he will go after it because that's what hubby taught him to do with the squirrels. So I'd take him out with me and just sit with the chicks all turned out to free range when they were young and if he even looked in their direction I'd tell him no no. IF one started running and he'd look, I'd say no no and now he doesn't even act like they're in the yard. It's like he doesn't even see them.

Thank goodness one of you isn't passive!

The problem with passive people owning dogs is that dogs crave that leadership and in the face of having none, are more destructive and unruly as a whole. If one watches the Cesar Milan episodes nearly 100% of the problems in those dogs are caused by passive ownership and is corrected pretty swiftly by someone who is not passive. You'd think they would look at that and say, "Hmmmmmmm....so THAT'S what it takes!" and proceed to become less passive but I'm willing to bet that most of those people never follow through because they still think dogs are people and will hate them if they are corrected or given rules and boundaries.

Unfortunately, it's those kind of people who really, really love tough breeds...maybe so they will feel more secure in life by owning a big dog? Not sure. I've done a lot of observation on people and their dogs and it always astounds me how many good dogs are going to waste out there for lack of good leadership. The dogs suffer so much from it and result in being restless, cranky, barking all the time, chasing things, and lacking in social behavior.

As a nurse I've had to go into many such homes and fend off bratty dogs while the humans sit idly by and watch as if they are puzzled by someone who isn't used to be jumped upon, growled and barked at, or doesn't really want a dog on their laps as they examine a patient. I think I'm most offended by the grouchy, yappy little overfed mutts that bark their fool heads off at you no matter how many times you visit, try to get between you and the patient and will growl if you try to touch them, etc. That's not love of the patient..that is guarding their territory and people mistaken that for love and "jealousy".

 

[7acres]

Thanks Bee and Armorfirelady (would be interested in knowing what that represents) Bee, once again very through and simple. I like the dirt. It is a lot like when we raised chickens when I was a kid. Appreciate the picture Armor as it proves the point. I currently have leaf litter in my dirt coop and shavings in my wood floor coop. I notice that the chickens in the wood floor go in during the day but never stay. The dirt floor ones go in often and sometimes stay a good period of time and I see them walking around and just sitting. I can hear them when I am outside having a conversation. I like this thread as it just feels right for me and the type of chicken raising I want to do. Did not someone on this thread say a while back they were accumulating information on this thread from Bee. If so a cut and paste on her explanation would be appropriate. Also, have any of you bought eggs or poultry from Hardin Farms in Crump Tn. I was looking at them and they seem like nice straight forward people. I was interested in getting some Blue Laced Red Wyandottes or eggs from them. Thought I might just take an overnighter there and pick them up. About 8 hours from here. A PM is o.k. if you do not want to comment openly. And Bee, this fall I plan to get a larger area fenced and pick up people bagged leaves, unwanted hay and horse manure from the stable near here to make it more natural. I now feel guilty when I go to one of my pens and see bare dirt, so I shut my garden down and let them loose in that area to compensate for my indiscretion on their behalf. Hopefully, if I ever get locked up it won't be a bare floor either. Oh, and on the horse manure, should I be concerned about the mold in it?