Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Angelicisi]

They're awesome! Congratulations! Hope mama comes around shortly. I think she will I have a 9 week old growing out. I see you're going to try FF! Omg. Lol I want to now :/ I was going to refrain for a lil while longer lol doh. On the plus side all my rabbits have had ACV water since day one, maybe it'll help ease them onto the feed?

Awright folks! I promised some photos so here they are! These kits are about 24 hours old now... They should be getting fed real soon as they're all looking a bit like they haven't been fed since they were born. They're only fed 1-2 times a day, so this isn't too unusual, but this is also Cana's first litter so I have no idea if she'll care for them. I MIGHT be able to foster them off onto my 2-week old litters (I've seen it done) but I'd rather that not happen. It would not be too hard to force nurse them if she refuses to feed 'em either... But only time will tell if she cares for them in any case. If they're still not fed by noon tomorrow I may have to intervene but that gives mama 14 hours yet to feed them. You can just start to see the sheen of fur coming in on them over the pink. They're born bright red but get their fur fast. In 1-2 more days they'll be white. They're about as long as my thumb and a bit wider right now. They'll double their size in just a few days, too. Her sister, Diamond, might be due this weekend too. She's been nesting but has been known to nest constantly for weeks without being bred. :3 Gotta say, love my rabbits. My two-weekers are just starting on solids a tad. In two more weeks I'll be starting weaning and then I'll separate one out to try fermented rabbit feed. (lulz) Not sure how that will go since rabbits don't normally "do" acidic things well... But who knows unless we try, right? We also seem to have fall earmites creeping up... Out comes the mineral oil!

 

[Beekissed]

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I've never read anything that would suggest that bird's anatomy works any differently in that regard. A couple years back someone once posted that they feed their chickens in the evening in the winter months so that their chickens stay warmer during the cold nights and I'm thinking...well..it doesn't really work that way. Hence why one doesn't go in the water after eating....loss of blood flow to the extremities during digestion as more blood is diverted to the digestive tract leaves the muscles with less blood flow/oxygen, causing cramping and possible drowning.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Angelicisi, if you look at blocks, pellets or cubes of these hays it'll give a guaranteed analysis, and the percentages are right around where I said. My alfalfa cubes say 16% but I know some alfalfa hays get up WAY higher than that! Rabbits can actually live off of nothing but free-feeding good hay and a rabbit mineral block and can even manage one or two litters a year this way if you throw in some veggies or oats. Some breeder I know feed nothing but hay, veggies and oats and produce 4 litters a year for each doe. It is the best thing for them, they thrive on it and that's why I push hay so hard for rabbits no matter how they're kept. I feed my buns a higher protein feed (18%) in small quantities and TONS of hay. Not a single tummy problem ever in years.

As for in chickens, I would say, imagine how much a chicken bites off of a piece of grass... Maybe an inch or two. My alfalfa cubes that I ferment are about 1.5 inches across, maybe as much as two, never had a crop issue thus far. So I figure if I chop up hay into the FF it'd have to be about the same. The liquid will soften the hay up quite a bit and make it almost like grass again. So I am thinking maybe I can transition some of my flock to a hay-heavy diet!

And for the rabbit FF, I will be adding ACV to the water for a bit leading up to it as they start drinking on their own... Then when I try the ff I will mix it VERY thick and I will take the ACV out of the water. Too much acid makes bunny tummies have bad things happen. So I'm going to be very careful with it. I may even mix in a bit of soda into the water to counteract the acid levels.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm wondering if you were to just feed them fermented whole grains and then leave the alfalfa dry if it would be a less messy prospect. The grains could then be placed in a plastic "L" feeder and drain off any excess moisture.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

You mean for the rabbits, or the chickens? For the chickens I ferment the alfalfa because it's in cube form; they can't otherwise eat it. The hay would be pretty wise to ferment because it makes it softer, too.
For the rabbits I never intended to ferment the alfalfa... Again it's in cube form and it becomes a treat to them important to tooth care. But I may try fermenting in some chopped hay for them as well.

The problem with just fermenting whole grains is I don't feed my rabbits whole grains. I feed pellets, and in the winter I feed some cracked corn as some extra calories and fat to get them through the cold. They mostly avoid the corn, but they nibble a little when they feel like it and so I put just a bit in. Feeding rabbits whole grains is tricky because like I just said... They're really more hay-eaters than grain eaters. There's no whole grain mix that I know of that'd be appropriate for rabbits... I'd have to figure out what I wanted to feed and custom order it in a big amount. Not worth it when the rabbits may just refuse to eat it at all and it may not work out.

I did buy a special bag of pellets for this batch of kits. Purina "show" is a 16% feed and that's what I'll be using for the experiment as so not to give them too much protein fermented. It helps that they didn't have enough of the "pro" formula. Both formulas are mostly grass-based. I've used a 16% formula before and it worked out pretty good so I figure this is the way to go.

Also, also, I don't use J feeders. I am very fond of my crock bowls because I measure my feed carefully instead of free feeding (much like we do with our meat birdies. ;D To keep them from getting too chubby too quick) and since all the bedding goes to the chickens in the end anyhow, nothing gets wasted even if they spill. It cuts my chicken feed bill in it's own way and I like it this way. Never have liked J feeders.

 

[Angelicisi]

I like this idea. Hay is tough to digest so fermented grains I'd think would be easy for them and worth a try even if hay is the main feed my creatures love variety. Hmmmm. I use J feeders with an awesome built in screen/drain! but they're metal. This isn't a good thing right? I know the ACV is corrosive but if fed small amounts grains w/acv daily in it, could it be dangerous? If I ferment a batch with say, buttermilk? Is it corrosive to the metal after it ferments or is it just the Vinager that does it?

I'm wondering if you were to just feed them fermented whole grains and then leave the alfalfa dry if it would be a less messy prospect.  The grains could then be placed in a plastic "L" feeder and drain off any excess moisture. 

 

[Beekissed]

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I used to measure just what they could eat that day into the J feeders and placed chicken wire over the opening so they couldn't shovel it out. Saved a lot of waste.

Here's an article about common rabbit feed ingredients and some whole grains such as oats, barley, wheat, sunflower seeds and even, low and behold, distillers grains, are listed as regular ingredients. I'm wondering if such grains could be fermented and fed in their whole form to provide that portion of the feed ration.

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Angelisici, they make a plastic J feeder......yay!

 

[Lacy Blues]

Just a thought, Humans lose heat to major organs working in the cold. Not sure if chickens are the same...but after eating a meal, more blood is needed to make the organs digest and function properly. The blood is pulled from the surface to organs leaving skin and appendages at risk for colder temps.
BUT chickens obviously have different anatomy! I just thought I'd mention it could be somethin to keep an eye on.

I've never read anything that would suggest that bird's anatomy works any differently in that regard. A couple years back someone once posted that they feed their chickens in the evening in the winter months so that their chickens stay warmer during the cold nights and I'm thinking...well..it doesn't really work that way. Hence why one doesn't go in the water after eating....loss of blood flow to the extremities during digestion as more blood is diverted to the digestive tract leaves the muscles with less blood flow/oxygen, causing cramping and possible drowning.

Ok, I was told by someone on another thread that in the summer, I should not feed high fiber foods because of the heat that is produced as their bodies are digesting it. I had asked about cooling foods to help them deal with the heat. I realize that blood is drawn from the extremities in the first couple of hours after eating but after that point, doesn't the body warm up as those digestive fires are smouldering for the next several hours? I feed at 3pm right now. The birds don't go to roost until about 4:30, so that gives them an hour and a half to get the digestive process going real good. Then after going to perch, they don't need their muscles for anything other than to stay on the perch and I believe that is an involuntary action. For me it wouldn't be involuntary, but for them... well, that's they way the good Lord made them.

Bee, I never realized that the cramps were caused by a lack of blood to the extremities, just that it was associated with eating before swimming and even then, it was only for like 40 minutes (the way I learned it anyway).

Right now we're not having the bitter cold weather. I think our lowest temps this week are in the 20s and the lowest temp is always just before the sun starts to climb up in the sky, then it warms up quickly.

I like this idea. Hay is tough to digest so fermented grains I'd think would be easy for them and worth a try even if hay is the main feed my creatures love variety. Hmmmm. I use J feeders with an awesome built in screen/drain! but they're metal. This isn't a good thing right? I know the ACV is corrosive but if fed small amounts grains w/acv daily in it, could it be dangerous? If I ferment a batch with say, buttermilk? Is it corrosive to the metal after it ferments or is it just the Vinager that does it?

When I clean up my food at night, I use a square, metal spatula to scrape the pans and get all the uneaten food into one bucket to bring inside. Sometimes I forget to take that spatula out of the bucket and in the morning I'll take it out and wipe it on the side of the bucket and the food that comes off is always gray. Yuk! So, that gets removed and put in the trash. I don't know if buttermilk has the same effect but its been a long long time since I put any ACV in my ff.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Bee, while my feed has some of those it does not have most. I am certain there are no distillers grains in them. Its primary ingredients are grasses. I never said they couldn't eat grains... Just that they're about as natural for rabbits as they are for cows in that it should be a tiny part of their diet if at all and I ain't going through the trouble of putting together a whole grain mix for my rabbits that is nutritionally complete just for this. So unless someone wants to ship me a nice rabbit savvy grain mix...

 

[Beekissed]

All food provides energy, fast or slow or in between, and that energy is used in so many ways in the body and, yes, that energy provides heat but it's very evenly distributed among all the cells by the body systems~mainly the cardiovascular system and also the endocrine and nervous systems (hypothalamus gland regulates body temps)~ which is normal and necessary for a warm blooded animal. Chickens are very good at regulating that distribution of heat to maintain body temps because they have unique systems in place to help with this~combs, feet/legs, respiration and fat deposits that are different than in other animals. In colder temps they automatically exert less physical energy in walking, foraging, etc. and will stand in one place with feathers fluffed and slightly hunkered down.


A regular layer ration has fiber, carbs, proteins, vitamins and minerals all necessary for this process. If you are feeding a balanced ration, it will adequately maintain proper energy levels for your birds to maintain body heat in cold weather.

Quote: Birds allowed free access to their environment also rely on behavioral thermoregulation. This means they will seek out the most energy efficient means of maintaining their body
temperature such as feather ruffling, drinking water, moving into the shade or sun (or heat source), huddling and lying down.

The major advantage of endothermy over ectothermy is decreased vulnerability to fluctuations in external temperature. Regardless of location (and hence external temperature), endothermy maintains a constant core temperature for optimum enzyme activity. Endotherms control body temperature by internal homeostatic mechanisms. In mammals two separate homeostatic mechanisms are involved in thermoregulation - one mechanism increases body temperature, while the other decreases it. The presence of two separate mechanisms provides a very high degree of control. This is important because the core temperature of mammals can be controlled to be as close as possible to the optimum temperature for enzyme activity.

Here's some info on how energy is used from feeds in livestock:

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