Fermenting Feed

[Huntmaster]

The second is homogenised commercial feed in crumble or pellet form. When that is set to ferment it basically just gets wet and what changes take place make it smell strongly and little else.

The same microbes, working on the same ingredients, in the same conditions, will result in the same biochemical changes - whether its whole corn, cracked corn, or milled corn. Ditto wheat, Barley, Oats, and all the rest.

"As nutrient loss occurs during milling, nutrients are added to flour in amounts equal to those present before processing to make enriched flour. Fortified flour is made by adding nutrients in excess to quantities lost during milling, or additional nutrients are added to improve its nutritive value.

MILLING PROCESS​

Except for whole-wheat flour, which contains all three parts of the wheat kernel, most flours are made from the endosperm after removal of the bran and germ. This decreases the nutritive value of the flour, as a large proportion of the thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B-6, folic acid and iron present in whole-wheat kernels is absent in the finely ground endosperm flour. To compensate for the loss of the nutrients incurred during the milling process, flour is enriched with nutrients

Yes, if there are other things done to the ingredients

The major compositional difference between whole grains and their milled form is reduc-tion of all nutrients that are stored in external layer, dietary fiber, and the components associatedwith fibers including phytic acid, tannin, polyphenol, and some enzyme inhibitors like trypsin inhibi-tor, as well as minerals and some vitamins (Garcı́a-Estepa, Guerra-Hernández, & Garcı́a-Villanova

 

[figit]

Same here on the just enough with dry as backup. We've got a batch of 60 CX @ 6.5 weeks and they go through a 5G bucket (thick oatmeal consistency) of FF by mid afternoon, pretty much ignoring the dry feed when FF is available.

 

[Perris]

Neither suggest that the process of milling makes fermentation of the milled product worthless

As usual, you jump to the extreme position, and one I do not take and have not taken. Knowledge does not advance through the creation of straw men.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

As usual, you jump to the extreme position, and one I do not take and have not taken. Knowledge does not advance through the creation of straw men.

"The second is homogenised commercial feed in crumble or pellet form. When that is set to ferment it basically just gets wet and what changes take place make it smell strongly and little else."

Your words. That seems a pretty extreme position I was responding to. You were being facetious?

 

[Perris]

I am not going to get into another tortured discussion of this subject. Here's my parting quote: "To avoid losses of some essential nutrients in fermented feeds, Sugiharto et al. (2015b) suggested fermenting the grain fraction only (before incorporation into compound diets) instead of the complete diets." Recent advances in fermented feeds towards improved broiler chicken performance, gastrointestinal tract microecology and immune responses: A review
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.aninu.2018.11.001

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I am not going to get into another tortured discussion of this subject. Here's my parting quote: "To avoid losses of some essential nutrients in fermented feeds, Sugiharto et al. (2015b) suggested fermenting the grain fraction only (before incorporation into compound diets) instead of the complete diets." Recent advances in fermented feeds towards improved broiler chicken performance, gastrointestinal tract microecology and immune responses: A review
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.aninu.2018.11.001

That quote is actually from this study (sorry I couldn't find full text). Its applicability to fermenting generally or for chicken feeds specifically seems "somewhat attenuated" - but perhaps with the full text we might be able to better judge. Do you have a copy? The relevant quote doesn't seem to appear in the published summary, nor is it clear how that conclusion results from the study's claimed purpose.

Gastrointestinal ecosystem and immunological responses in E. coli challenged pigs after weaning fed liquid diets containing whey permeate fermented with different lactic acid bacteria​

 

[Debbie292d]

This is my approach as well. They get FF in the morning and depending on how hungry they are it can last a few hours or through to mid afternoon. It might be a bit dry and crumbly by afternoon but it's still edible and they'll finish it off if I just put the bowls on the ground in the middle of the run. Dry feed is also available during the day so after they finish the FF off they can eat their fill of that, so there's never too much food or too little.

Pretty much the same here. I use silicone loaf pans to put mine in, then if any is left at night, I turn those inside out and dump it in the yard. Someone'll eat it eventually.

They always have their crumbles in the coop. I do not feed FF solely either. Mine is half Henhouse reserve and the other half is whole wheat and oats, with a smidge of flax and chia.

 

[Aziza]

Several hours is fine. Because you've fermented it, if you have done it properly, it is already colonized with beneficial (or at least, not harmful) microbes - they will help to protect against bad microbes getting a foothold, to a point (we've all seen green fuzzy growths on the old yogurt, after all).

That point is determined by the quality of your air, ambient temperature, pH of your fermented feed, and a host of other factors. There's no "one answer fits all" here. But a few hours should be ok in virtually any normal environment.

I don't ferment, but I do vary the amount of feed my birds get daily. I have a "10 minute" rule. If the birds gobble everything up in much less than 10 minutes and are mobbing me for more, I'm not feeding enough. If after ten minutes they have wandered off, leaving a pile of food behind, I've fed too much.

I have to do it this way because my birds free range a large pasture, and how much it feeds them varies by season, recent rainfall, and other factors I haven't identified yet. You may find that a useful approach in your situation as well.

I mixed fermented and dry grains in their feed and they eat al, the fermented first and the rest afterwards. I only ferment the wheat

 

[FamFarmer]

Source?

Milling doesn't change chemistry. The same microbes, working on the same ingredients, in the same conditions, will result in the same biochemical changes - whether its whole corn, cracked corn, or milled corn. Ditto wheat, Barley, Oats, and all the rest.

The primary difference is speed of initial ferment. By cracking the outer protective layer, cracked corn can be colonized more quickly than whole corn. Milled corn, with its greater surface area relative to volume, faster still.

Yes, if there are other things done to the ingredients - such as converting soy beans into soy meal - the outcome is different, but that's because you are starting with different ingredients, not because of the magic of fermentation.

I'm no seasoned expert but here is what I've found from trial and research. My first attempts at fermenting various brands of organic pellet or crumble feed were hit or miss. When I tried organic scratch grains I had much better luck. Then I remembered from learning to ferment food for myself that the pH should be kept between 3.5 - 4.5. The processed feed calcium supplements which can buffer the pH making it difficult to maintain the acidity favorable to lactobacillus rather than mold. I just use the scratch grains now and don't have any issues. I leave a feeder with pellets or all day and give them a fermented meal twice a day. I mix a bit of organic Cluck n Go layer blend (which is powder) to the fermented feed at meal time to soak up the liquid so they get the benefits of that too.

I read a study that found fermented feed increased egg production and just hydrated feed decreased egg production vs control. I believe each was about 10 or 11 percent.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm no seasoned expert but here is what I've found from trial and research. My first attempts at fermenting various brands of organic pellet or crumble feed were hit or miss. When I tried organic scratch grains I had much better luck. Then I remembered from learning to ferment food for myself that the pH should be kept between 3.5 - 4.5. The processed feed calcium supplements which can buffer the pH making it difficult to maintain the acidity favorable to lactobacillus rather than mold. I just use the scratch grains now and don't have any issues. I leave a feeder with pellets or all day and give them a fermented meal twice a day. I mix a bit of organic Cluck n Go layer blend (which is powder) to the fermented feed at meal time to soak up the liquid so they get the benefits of that too.

I read a study that found fermented feed increased egg production and just hydrated feed decreased egg production vs control. I believe each was about 10 or 11 percent.

I'd like to read that study. It seems *unlikely*, given the margins in the egg business. If rate of lay could be improved 10% by fermentation, then every egg laying commercial operation would be doing it. Historically, they operate at margins under 7% - having 10% more product for the same inputs would more than double their profitability.