Flock is sick again - advice needed

[ND]

A random sneeze ever so often may be just that... a random sneeze from dust or whatever. Coughing is a bit different, though. I might ignore a random cough if I thought it was "food going down wrong" or something, but if it repeated much at all, I'd be thinking illness.

And yup, you can give the Tylan 50 injectable orally. Not mixed in water (have never tried that...wouldn't know a dose, etc...or if it'd last in water all day, etc), but by a syringe orally, sure can. Actually injecting it is probably faster, gets in the blood stream better and might work more efficiently, but it does still work given orally.


Tractor supply is a farm store/feed store type business in many areas. Tylan 50 isn't by Rx, baytril is...and baytril can only be gotten through a vet. In my experience with MG and secondary infections from it... Tylan seems to work about the same as baytril (I've used both), and for the ease (in most places) to get Tylan vs. going to a vet, that's a big plus.
You can likely find Tylan 50 in many farm type supply stores. Tractor supply, Atwoods, your local feed stores may carry it-- and it can be ordered online. Tylan is also about a 10th the price of Baytril.... Tylan runs around $10 bucks, give or take, around here. You'll find it in the livestock section...for cows, pigs, etc. It's "off label" for poultry, but is an often used medication in poultry anyway. (as are many things that aren't specifically labeled for poultry)

Sulmet and Tetracyclin don't seem terribly effective for respiratory symptoms... my experience anyway. Tylan was much more effective in 5 doses.


BUT-- these things being a chronic condition-- a carrier state... it could be that your pullet, coolchickens, is just having a 'relapse' of that... they can show symptoms again when stressed or...for any reason really. Or, they may never again. You can never be sure.



BlaBauve... There's no problem in eating the eggs of these birds. It's not passed to humans or other animals (outside of birds/poultry) and on top of that, cooking would kill it anyway. Which, come to think of it... a well cooked egg fed back to the birds probably wouldn't matter so much anyway...because the heat would kill it easily. The biggest thing would be the meds/antibiotic traces that'd remain...and be ingested. When I've had to 'toss eggs' due to medication, I feed them to the dogs.... I'm not that concerned about any residue passed in the egg for the dogs... if that's the WORST thing they ate in a day, we'd ALL be lucky. :X

Anyway... there's no problem with the meat/eggs from CRD birds for human consumption. You'd just want to avoid eating any that are being treated with meds until the medication withdrawal time.

 

[BLaBauve]

Well I have an appointment tomorrow morning to bring a few birds to the Georgia Poultry Lab. They will take blood and swab them for me in the parking lot.

None of the birds I'm bringing seem super sick, but I figure they will still show up with something. The Doctor I've been speaking to thinks it's MG. I'm assuming he won't be able to recommend a treatment, just tell me what they have.

As of right now, I'm not going to be able to cull any of my "pets", unless they continue to worsen. The ones that are currently sick did not show symptoms the first go around, so maybe this is their first time getting it - I hope. I don't plan on starting antibiotics until I know exactly what they have.

Once it gets colder will they get sicker or better? I know the cold can help prevent bacteria from thriving - but I assume the changing temps can stress them as well? Luckily it doesn't get too terrible cold here in Georgia.

By the way - I've heard it's really hard to get Baytril these days.

 

[Chikndinner]

"charitysteel
Yesterday 11:39 pm Urbanchick101- No, do not feed them there eggs because if it is indeed CRD or MG this gets passed through their egg as well, so you'd be giving them eggs infected with the very illness you're treating."



"ND
Today 7:48 am
Urban chicken-- I would not feed them their own eggs. During acute infection, their hen to egg transfer rate is much higher... it falls off to a pretty low % later when in the carrier state. Feeding them their eggs would feed the infection to birds that may not have it (yet), etc."


"ND
Today 3:24 pm BlaBauve... There's no problem in eating the eggs of these birds. It's not passed to humans or other animals (outside of birds/poultry) and on top of that, cooking would kill it anyway. Which, come to think of it... a well cooked egg fed back to the birds probably wouldn't matter so much anyway...because the heat would kill it easily. The biggest thing would be the meds/antibiotic traces that'd remain...and be ingested."


Ok So Now I am a little confused. Are these viruses we are talking about? If so a thoroughly cooked egg should have no live virus remaining.

I am also of the belief that what little extra trace residue medication that is in these eggs should not be in an amount harmfull to the bird, particularly since they are being treated with that medication in the first place.

Any other opinions?

 

[ND]

ChiknDinner- Yeah, I agree... that's why, after I thought about it for a second, I figured a cooked egg probably wouldn't be able to further pass on the illness if fed back to the birds. I don't feed eggs that have residue back to the chickens...but I'll feed them to my dogs- raw even. The thing for me is that even if it's a trace amount of residue of the medication, I try not to treat the entire flock... I try to only medicate any affected birds that need it. So some hens are laying eggs that don't have traces of meds in them (that we don't toss) and some are 'tainted' (if we're currently treating anything). Given that the entire flock is either exposed heavily or infected or already carriers... it'd probably do no real harm feeding them back to the birds, especially after being cooked. I just don't mainly because I don't want anyone not being treated with meds to ingest any meds in their food. (but i seem to have no problem tossing them to my dogs!

)

MG isn't a virus, it's actually a bacteria. BUT, it's a funny little bacteria that lacks a cell wall. This makes it super fragile (outside it's host), but also makes it capable of acting like a virus and remaining in the bird after initial infection, making it a carrier disease.


BlaBauve- I wish I had somewhere nearby to take birds for testing. I've called and called and everyone treats me like I'm growing two heads...

I'm fairly certain that my first original flock I got was infected with MG... 99% certain. It's really the only thing that fits-- so many of them share common symptoms, but MG seems most probable because of the incubation time after exposure and the slow movement through a flock. Many of the others that could have the same symptoms were described as very high morbidity, with the rate of morbidity being within days usually. That's not how MG 'flows' through a flock, though. It's PAINFULLY slow, seeming like you're dealing with sickness nonstop for quite awhile. So terribly frustrating and heartbreaking.

Let us know what you're testing shows!

As far as whether they'll get worse or better? I'm not sure anyone could say... I haven't dealt with it long enough to know if my birds will 'relapse' often or being seemingly healthy with it being 'silent' and never rearing it's ugly head again in relapse. I'm GUESSING, I'll have birds that may be more prone to showing symptoms again...and birds that won't ever show another symptom. I've read that being cold can cause them to 'react' again... I'm not so sure if it's the actual cold or how the birds handle it AND their accommodations, ya know? If they have housing that affords them a sheltered, non drafty place to sleep... plenty of space so they're not crowded and stressed during "cooped up" times during the winter... clean and well fed, etc... the stress level of the coldness would be greatly reduced-- perhaps they'd not react in any way to it.

The majority of the birds in my flock did NOT display symptoms...and haven't still. Maybe they were the carriers, maybe they 'fought it off', maybe they just silently contracted it. I have no idea. (this is where I'd love testing!) No one that came down with it initially has yet to show symptoms again after 'recovery'. But-- it's only been a few months, so we'll see! I don't want to cull the original flock, but I can't 'treat and treat and treat' if there are any that can't handle it and keep relapsing into symptoms, you know? I will probably fall into the 'if they can manage it and fight it off, they can live' approach... if they generally become 'sickly' birds and constantly have issues, those may have to go.

 

[BLaBauve]

ND, I agree with you about not keeping the ones that constantly get sick. When our flock first got this I did cull the sickest bird - well a friend did it for me.

I'm heading to the poultry lab now, I feel lucky it's only 40 minutes away. I'm bringing 2 hens and a pullet. They don't seem super sick, but they do show symptoms and were not sick with the first go around. I will let you know the results in a few days!

 

[BLaBauve]

I had a very good experience at the lab this morning. The doctor took blood and did throat swabs. He seems very certain it is MG. He recommeded I start the whole flock on injectable baytril - given orally. I'm currently trying to find a vet that carries it.

I had someone else tell me Baytril will not treat this and that I should use orbafloxacin instead. So now I am torn - I don't know what to give them!

 

[ND]

My experience, for what it's worth:

I have gone with Tylan 50 for treatment. IF a chicken is going to 'get over it' and resume acting healthy, Tylan has done it for me. I give injectable tylan, but give it orally.

I saw others swear by Baytril, and I found a vet that would give me a script. Now, it worked... but honestly... no faster and no better than the Tylan...and it STILL did not "fix" the ones that weren't dealing with it well. I had one that continually held it's eye shut and still acted a bit 'down' sometimes, and I had a hen that went off feed/water for days and days and was just very depressed and lethargic. Oddly enough, she didn't show any sneezing or eye symptoms, but seems to "sigh" often, like taking a deep breath. Tylan didn't help her, Baytril didn't help her. Since I found myself treating them for WEEKS, they're no longer here.

I would NOT treat everyone in the flock if they are not showing symptoms. That's just me. (and what I've learned thru this experience)

First, it's not a "cure", it'll only help with any secondary illnesses or infections. (it won't prevent carrier status)

Tylan 50 and Baytril have had exactly similar results in my flock... in the same amount of time. Tylan is about a 10% the price of Baytril and isn't Rx.

Secondly, treating the entire flock (those not showing any problems) will NOT stop them from getting sick/contracting the MG. I had one hen that I noticed immediately... her first symptom was two or three tiny bubbles in her eyes. She hadn't even sneezed or coughed yet. But... I knew she was 'coming down' with it next. I started her IMMEDIATELY on Baytril (you know, supposedly the 'best'), and she still got worse over the next 3 days-- hers was actually the worst (sounding at least), she hacked and honked like a goose and sounded very raspy. This was on the 3 day, after two full doses of Baytril. BUT, she turned around the next day, sounded clearer...and by day 5 was "all better". Pretty much the same timeline as any treated with Tylan. A second hen that I saw with only eye bubbles to start with was treated with Tylan and hers stopped in it's tracks, never got worse, she never sneezed or coughed. Now, I don't think that means the Tylan was better for it... I think it means that hen just wasn't going to get as bad as the other in the first place.

Lastly, meds are just hard on their system if they don't require it... and it attributes to the resistance to antibiotics.


If I thought, for a second, that treating them "preventatively" (is that even a word? lol) would help, I'd suggest it. BUT, it won't prevent others from contracting it, and it won't do a thing for those not suffering from any active symptoms of infection or secondary infection.


You won't be treating the MG so much... as you'll be treating the secondary infections and effects of the MG. You cannot rid their bodies of the MG, not matter what drug of choice you decide to use.


You may or may not find a vet willing to Rx Baytril for poultry... it was banned a few years ago for use in poultry (and made Rx) for CRD type things because of the threat of it quickly becoming resistant and the overuse when not called for. It's still used off-label for CRD in poultry, but it might be harder to find a vet that'll Rx it for that.

I think Baytril is a powerful, broad spectrum med... and might be very effective in some things, more so than many others. But I think if you have MG that's showing to be a "mild strain", it's overkill and not any more or any less effective than alternatives.

That's my buck fifty. (too much to be two cents... lol)



I'd treat orally with Tylan 50, only treat those showing symptoms and treat 2-3 days past the last symptom seen. (about 5-7 days in my experience)
For really bad cases, I'd either go with injecting the Tylan OR dose twice a day, morning and night... just because it's broken down faster in the 'gut' than it is by injection.

If you decide to try Baytril, that's fine... but don't be shocked to find that it works just about Tylan for MG, exactly. Just costs you lots more.

 

[BLaBauve]

Your experience is very helpful. I am very torn about what to do. This is the second time they've been sick in just a few months. And it's just not realistic that I will never add new flockmates to the flock. I also will always feel weird eating their eggs after they've have antiobiotics so often - even if I do a proper withdrawl period.

We are currently trying to decide if we should euthanize the whole flock - we only have 9 hens so it wouldn't be too awful. It's just hard because they are pets so to speak. We would feel very selfish if we did so - it's such a hard decision

 

[rcentner]

In my experience....Baytril works very well when nothing else seems to. Treat them with your drug of choice if you see problems like not eating or not acting right. (signs of a secondary infection) seems like the right way to go, but keep in mind that a chicken who is not eating or drinking will not recover as well...would hate to lose a bird cause I wanted to wait and see how they did, but waited too long.

Also, I would use the apple cider vinegar in the water when not using medications in them, this will help the bacterium (this one and other bacteria) from spreading through the water dishes.

lastly, There are a lot of sources that claim that mycoplasma can be in your environment and that 80-90% of backyard flocks are exposed at some point. I personally, would not cull my flock for a CRD or mycoplasma. That seems like irresponsible pet ownership to me, but then again, my flock are PETS. I don't sell them, eat them or sell hatching eggs. I suppose if you were looking to raise show quality chickens that you want to sell or take to shows it may be different. Also think about how many birds at a poultry show are infected and people don't know it. The stress of being taken out of their environment and brought to a busy show can bring it out of any bird and also make them more susceptible to pick it up. oh the dilema!

 

[BLaBauve]

Quote:
Thank you for your advice. Don't get me wrong, my chickens are my pets, but I'm trying to be practical. That doesn't mean I want to euthanize them. Doesn't this disease mean that there is always the chance for flare ups? Therefore I will always being paying for medication, and not being able to eats eggs, etc etc. Isn't there also the chance I will be eating eggs with trace amounts of antibiotics? From what I've read there are NO studies that truly tell you how long antibiotics stay in eggs. And lastly, I'd like to add more hens to my flock, but I worry that would cause a flare up as well and automatically give them CRD. Yes, it's quite a dilemma. I wish I could find someone that has had CRD in their flock for several years, I'd like to know how often they had to treat with antibiotics.