Flock Mortality - what's acceptable?

[TeamBigfoot]

Hello again BYC. I'm looking for opinions on what's normal to see in flock mortality. Based on the very few other backyard chicken people I know personally, our flock mortality is way, way, way outside of the norm. But it's all we've really known, so I'm looking for a broader perspective.

August 2013, we brought home five week-old chicks. Four were sourced from a relatively run-down feed store, but they had the breeds we wanted (and we didn't know better). The fifth (our Easter Egger) was purchased from a more respectable feed store in another town.

• December 2013, we put down our Light Bhrama. We believe she had Merek's.
• May 2014, we put down our Welly. No true diagnosis from the vet.

August 2014 we brought home three week-old chicks from a reputable feed store (different from the first two). We got a Spotted Sussex and two Wyandottes (golden-laced, and silver-laced). Kept separate for 30+ days, washed hands/changed clothes between populations, etc.

• October 2014, our EE died. She developed a wheeze, vet put her on antiBs, but within a week she died at home.
• Superbowl Sunday, 2015, we put down our Buff Orpington. She had some sort of tumor growth that was pushing aside her head.
• May 2017, we put down our Red Sex-linked. Vet said ovarian cancer, likely spreading to her lungs due to dark comb/waddle and heaving breathing.

And, today, our Spotted Sussex is at the vet currently to be diagnosed. She has low energy, no appetite, a full (but not impacted crop), mucusy poo, egg laying issues, and a firm abdomen. She's had egg laying issues for over a year, but the firm abdomen is new within the last few days.

So, with that kind of track record, what are we doing wrong? One of my co-workers has had chickens for the same amount of time and never had cause to find a vet (and so had no recommendation for me).

We love our chickens and each death is heartbreaking. This can't be normal or else no one would have backyard chickens. But it is our normal.

 

[SunHwaKwon]

Honestly it seems like some people have bad luck! My neighbor down the road loses chickens left and right, either to illness, sudden mysterious death, or predators. It is the same with a friend of mine that I met here on BYC. On the other hand, I've had chickens for about two years. Besides shipped chicks, my losses have been very low. Predators have been the main issue, and primarily with the guineas wanting to roost in the trees so it's to be expected with that.

In my neighbors case, though, I think a great deal of it comes down to nutrition.

If you can describe your housing, bedding, cleaning habits, feed, feeding and watering habits, and so on, maybe we can find some suggestions.

 

[Eggcessive]

Some vets cannot really diagnose a chicken that well since many symptoms are so similar or vague. Lab tests and xrays are usually beyond most people's funds. A professional necropsy sounds like the best way to find out if there is a certain disease affecting your flock. Mareks can be suspected, but only diagnosed with testing of tumors or feather shafts. The state vet or a college poultry lab can perform a thorough necropsy, although I think that quality may vary by state. If you had Mareks once, you will continue to see it again and again, since all chickens become carriers, and it can remain in the environment for years. Reproductive cancer or an internal laying problem can be suspected, but only diagnosed with a necropsy as well. Sorry that you have had so many problems. I think that first time owners getting baby chicks from a hatchery, then not adding any new birds from any other source is probably the best way to avoid illnesses, but not always possible. Here are a couple of links with contact info for necropsies:
http://www.metzerfarms.com/PoultryLabs.cfm
https://www.heritageacresmarket.com/blogs/misc/necropsy-list

 

[TeamBigfoot]

If you can describe your housing, bedding, cleaning habits, feed, feeding and watering habits, and so on, maybe we can find some suggestions.

Housing is a 4x4x4' raised coup with attached 4x8' run, but they free-range all day. Backyard is 50x75', fenced, with either native to SoCal plants or our four raised-bed garden. No pesticides or other poisons are used anywhere. We bought our house from the original owner, a single elderly bachelor who had a dog in a patio run and a yard full of grass. All that grass is long dead.

Bedding in the coup is pine shavings. The run has a dirt floor, but they don't spend much time in either unless laying or raining. Coup is changed out every other week, no strong odors are noticed.

Feed is organic layer feed, non-medicated. I don't recall the current brand at the moment, the place we trust for non-moldy feed changes brands. Feed and water are located beneath the coup, so protected from direct moisture. Water is a 2gallon galvanized waterer. We have a feed annex on the other side of the yard and often do "water in the wild" where the girls will drink from the hose.

The chickens supplement their feed with worms in winter, Japanese scarab beetles in summer, any of a variety of greens or tomatoes from our garden, and fresh grass I grow for them in protected boxes. They also get afternoon scratch and occasional whole oats or a few crushed almonds.

Merek's was suspected due to the Light Bhrama losing leg mobility over a period of a month+. We initially thought she was just clumsy, but escalated until she couldn't move forward without flapping for assistance. None of our birds have had a necropsy; one vet mentioned it but mainly n the vein of looking for West Nile.

We have had not outstanding success seeking a vet knowledgeable about chickens. I can tell you where not to go, however.

Thank you for your replies.

 

[TeamBigfoot]

And this just in via my wife, from our current vet:

"Dr. Thomas examined her including feeling her abdomen. He thought that it felt like fluid in her abdomen so he used a small syringe to try and draw some out. He got what he initially believed to be pus (yellowish-colored liquid) but then he performed the smell test and concluded it wasn't infected, but smelled more like urine. He noticed some labored breathing when he first saw her but said her comb color was still good meaning she is getting enough oxygen. However, the fluid is most likely putting pressure on other organs including lungs. He did reference the fact that a reproductive tumor of some sort is not outside the realm of possibility given that her reproductive system has a history of being not quite as it should be. However, based on the observation that fluid was not infected, he stated that yolk peritonitis most likely not occurring. He feels that most likely her kidneys are failing and hence the fluid build-up. At this point, there is nothing he can do for her and said she was most likely not in pain. He does see that at some point very soon putting her down will be the humane thing to do. He also said that he wouldn't necessarily do it today since she is still drinking and does not seem to be in distress."

Also remembered that all current birds were vaccinated vs. Merek's. The first four of our chickens were not vaccinated (verified with the original feed store after the death of our Light Bhrama).

 

[rebrascora]

If you have Marek's in your flock, then you will see a higher mortality rate, particularly with juvenile/adolescent birds. Not saying it definitely is all down to Marek's, but it can certainly cause a lot, if not all of the various symptoms and deaths you have described and you don't necessarily see paralysis in all birds that have Marek's. Some die suddenly from visceral tumours and many succumb to secondary infections/complications due to their compromised immune systems, like respiratory infections, internal parasites, reproductive and digestive issues.

Were the second lot of chicks vaccinated for Marek's?

Once you suspect you have Marek's in the flock then, if you want to increase or replace lost flock members, you are best to either breed from survivors and raise within the flock.... OR.... bring in vaccinated chicks, keep them separate and practice strict bio security for the first 3 weeks and perhaps vaccinate them a second time before allowing exposure to the contaminated flock or ground. Even then, there is no guarantee that they won't get it, but it may protect them from the more lethal aspects of the disease, like tumours.
It is an awful disease that keeps coming back to bite you, just when you think you are clear of it and I understand and sympathise with the heart break! Unfortunately it is an extremely common virus and easily contracted and once you have it in your flock/land, it is virtually impossible to get rid of. Some strains are much more virulent than others too, so you have to figure out what works for you in your situation. I'm fortunate that mine is relatively mild (I lose 3 or 4 to it each year but I raised 56 chicks last year, so it's not as bad as it sounds, but each one causes me heartache and tears). I know enough about it now to know how to support the sick ones and when it is time to end it for them. I do my own post mortems (necropsies), so I learn what symptoms can occur with it and how to recognise them.

I wish you luck in managing the rest of your flock. Personally my funds don't run to veterinary care for chickens and unless you find one who has substantial knowledge of poultry, you are better off doing your own research. I found this forum invaluable in improving my knowledge and relating it to what I was observing in my flock. There are some extremely knowledgeable and experienced poultry people here who inspire more confidence that your average vet when it comes to chickens.

Best wishes for the future

Barbara

 

[TeamBigfoot]

The second set of chicks (August 2014) were vaccinated for Marek's. At this point I'm not sure if our EE from the original flock (but different source) was vaccinated.

We don't have confidence in any local vet, except Dr. Thomas above. And only because he has his own flock of chickens. Any other "avian" vet in the area has been a frustrating experience.

 

[rebrascora]

I see our posts overlapped as I was typing....I saw that you did get vaccinated chicks the second time, after I posted.
The symptoms you are describing in your last post sound like it could be internal laying. This is a common reproductive disorder where eggs(yolks) are released from the ovary but fail to travel into the oviduct to become eggs as we know them and instead fall into the abdominal cavity and steadily build up. Over time the yolks solidify and fluid leaches from them and builds up around them causing ascites...water belly. As Dr Thomas mentioned this causes a build up of pressure that eventually puts a strain on the internal organs including the heart, lungs and digestive tract. The fluid can be drained occasionally and many times no infection is present, but draining can allow infection in and lead to Egg Yolk Peritonitis and of course it does not prevent the continued build up of yolks in the abdomen, which in themselves, will eventually result in the death of the bird.
Some people have started getting Superlorin hormone implants for their chickens to prevent them from ovulating which stops further yolks being released by the ovary and therefore prevents further build up. This is expensive but can extend the life of the bird significantly, but it will probably never lay eggs properly again and need implants every 6 months or so to continue to prevent ovulation. Another option may be to reduce the bird's exposure to daylight and food, essentially triggering a moult and cessation of ovulation. I'm not sure what the long term effects of this would be, essentially keeping the bird in winter mode long term, or in fact if it will work at all. It is something I noticed with my internal layer that was bloated and walking like a penguin in late summer last year but improved dramatically during the winter, only to start getting worse when her comb got red in the spring and ovulation had clearly recommenced. Sadly she died before I had the brainwave to try artificially inducing that winter "non production" mode.
Of course it may also be that your hen has a tumour but if she otherwise looks in good condition ie not wasting, then my guess would be internal laying and ascites, especially as he removed fluid.... do you know if the fluid was clear or opaque like the yolk of an egg. Usually it is clear yellow/brown fluid and often there is nearly a pint of it, so removal can give the bird quite instant relief from the lung and heart pressure.

Anyway, it sounds like you may have a combination of a rather nasty disease and some bad luck. Hopefully you will have a change of fortune soon.

Regards

Barbara

 

[Chickassan]

Just a tinfoil hat wearers observation but your luck might have something to do with your location. I've got alot of west coast friends with birds dying from tumors and undiagnosed neurological disorders. Not just chickens either. Birds are alot more sensitive to environmental changes than we are.So sorry for your losses.

 

[Eggcessive]

The condition of fluid in the abdomen could be ascites, which is very common in egg yolk peritonitis, liver failure, and heart failure. Kidney disease can cause increased white urates in the droppings, a boggy kidney or ureter, and a white coating on internal organs at necropsy.