Floor Plan?

[meralgia]

Can someone suggest a best floor plan to take advantage of the light and breeze? I plan on installing another stud wall so I can put a shower door in between the two walls. I want to allow a lot of light in the coop. My main concern on allowing light and air is... where should the roost and nesting boxes go?

I'm facing east in this pic:


I'm facing west in this pic:


Basically it looks like this from above:
|---------------------| | | (12' x 12' enclosure) |
| nest boxes? | | | |
| | | ramp | food and water |
| | | out | |
| |-------studs--------| |-studs--| <-- solid wood wall abutting enclosure -------|
| |
| |
| roost? |
|---------------------- |
| |
|-------------------------studs----------|
| shower door | <-- door so I can remove shower door
|--------------------------studs---------|

Also, I have two steel nesting boxes for rabbits. Is there a reason I shouldn't use these? They're about 19" from front to back x 11" wide x 10" tall. We're planning on four to five chickens. If I used the galvanized steel boxes, should I add a third?

 

[bruceha2000]

First, I would like to say that I appreciate your interest in making sure the birds have light. I see SO many coops that have either no windows at all, or only a small one. That is KIND of OK if they are let out every morning but they really can't get a natural light rhythm if "sun rise" is OMG BRIGHT LIGHT as they leave the coop and "sun set" is the door closing behind them.

I'm trying to make sense of what I see. The current studded part is their indoor "day room" for when they can't be in the run?
I'm not sure how you plan to put in the shower door, maybe rotated 90 degrees so the normal sides are the top and bottom since it doesn't look like that wall is tall enough for a door. I would be concerned that being on the south wall, it could let in a LOT of heat in the summer. Maybe this is what you mean by being able to take it out? Hardware cloth on the south wall with a slide in from the side shower door? If that is the case, you don't the second wall to be a stud, really nothing more than a channel top and bottom to keep it from falling into the coop space.

I don't know about rabbit nest boxes, I found this picture:


Is this what you mean? A 'generic' chicken nest is about 12" x 12" so 11" x 19" is more than adequate. They do seem kind of high in the front and that is not a "chicken foot" width vertical edge. I would put an access board outside the top front edge, a 2x2 would be fine. You want a 2x4 on the flat for roosts, or since you seem to have a quantity of "tree parts", a 3" or 4" diameter one would be great though I wouldn't use a sappy piece of pine.

Also, since the boxes are covered in the back, you will have to devise a way to collect. I can think of a few ways:
- being able to walk into the area
- have a LARGE (and rain/snow proof) lid to access from the outside
- make the outside wall behind the nests hinged on the bottom with chain supports (to hold it in place flat) so you can fold it down and slide the nest boxes out. Make an overhang just above where the access door meets the rest of the wall so you don't get rain/snow melt in the boxes. This could make for a good clean out door for that part of the coop as well.

I think you can get away with just the two for 4 or 5 birds. I have concurrent nest space for 7 (10 birds) but they all have their favorites and get fussy if 'theirs' is occupied even when there is another available. Given the 19" depth of yours, 2 birds could be in a single box at the same time. I've seen 2 in my 12" x 12" boxes and though it is a squeeze, they fit. If they seem to have problems, you can add a third later, just plan the space for it in your original design. In fact, if 3 would fit along the wall you put them on, you can put one against each 'end' wall and the third can just be the space between them. All you need is a "front" to keep the shavings in.

You have my little design mind racing

What if:
You put the nests in the "studded" room IN the wall that adjoins the run? Then you could for sure access them from the outside and not have to worry about the nests getting wet since you have a roof? You could plop those boxes right between the studs with the edge of the the top flush with the interior wall. The girls access from inside the coop, you from the run. You would still need to be able to slide them out to get the eggs but again, being able to do that would make cleaning that part of the coop all the easier.

Are you intending the space on the west end "ell" (the part that looks like a repurposed book shelf on its side) to have more height? They like to roost as high as they can so if you have two roosts at different heights they will ALL want to be on the higher one.
Basic rule is "roosts must be higher than nest boxes" or they will sleep (and poop) where you want them to lay. 1 foot of roost per bird minimum. Mine spread out in the summer > 1' is good. In the winter 1' is more than enough because they pack together. If you live in a climate where people think 50F is COLD, you need more roost space, the birds can not take off their coats when it gets hot like that and you know the summer temps are a LOT higher.

They don't need light when they are asleep so you can put the roosts in the ell if there is height. You could put a high roost (leave min 12" head clearance) on the north wall and also run it along the west wall, they will have plenty of space. If the roost is over 2' high, I would put a lower one parallel to the one on the north end and down (figure maybe 1 foot out and 1 foot down) so it is easy for them to get down. Given they would have the opening to the studded space, I would not be surprised if they just fly to that space from the west wall roost. Again, think about how you will clean this area.

Unless you absolutely will always let the girls in the run all day, every day, (and that means no vacations with the neighbor taking care of the chickens, leaving them in the coop) I would plan on some food and water in the coop. You could make one of the vertical PVC pipe feeders with the "eating" part in the coop and the "filling" side in the run maybe just to the side of the ramp so it is under cover. As for water, I'm using "saddle nipples" in 3/4" PVC pipe, fed from an insulated drink cooler outside the coop. You could easily do 4 or 5 birds on a single nipple, two if you want to be generous. Slide it in from the run (farther into the coop than the feeder) a few inches from the east wall and a foot or so up. That makes it super easy for you or the "caretaker" to fill the feed and water containers. You can have your "primary" food and water out in the run, I just wouldn't want my girls to wake up to no water for several hours if the humans aren't available to do their part. Worse yet, locked in the coop while the humans are away for the day. I still fill the 1 gallon plastic waterer in the run for my girls and they use both. But if for whatever reason the 1 gallon is empty, the 5 gallons connected to the nipple water pipe lasts for weeks.

You are going to need a serious amount of 1/2" hardware cloth around the lower perimeter of the run and buried wire to keep out digging predators. Not sure how you get a predator proof door in with log "sills". Yes I see the chain link fence Raccoons can climb.

Bruce

 

[meralgia]

Thanks, Bruce, for all of your wisdom!!

> The current studded part is their indoor "day room" for when they can't be in the run?
That's right. I thought about not putting a wall on the studded portion facing the run (for early Summer to mid-Fall living) and adding one when the temps start to drop. I thought it might be fun for them to squeeze between the 16" OC studs and fly down into the run or across the run to a roost I'm planning on putting in the NW corner of the run.

> Hardware cloth on the south wall with a slide in from the side shower door?
That's right. The shower door will be rotated 90 degrees. My plan with the shower door is to remove the door from late May to mid-October. Then I'll slide the door in come mid-October. In late November, when the snow starts flying, I'll put rigid pink insulation between the studs and a plywood wall on top of that (with a window cut out so they still get light through the shower door). In mid-April, I'll pull the plywood off and take the shower door out again in late May. What do you think?

Thanks for your suggestion about a channel top and bottom... That will save on wood for sure and keep the bedding in that area contained so it doesn't clog up the sliding action of the shower door.

With the amount of sunlight they're getting, I'm concerned about how I might need to wall off the nesting boxes. What do you think? A lot of what I've read indicates that they need a dark, cozy area to lay their eggs. I might be able to put a piece of plywood at an angle so they're directed toward the back wall of the "el". I think I'll put the roost in the North wall and the nests in the south wall (it's reversed in the OP).

> Is this what you mean?
About the size of the rabbit nesting boxes? Yes. I will have to put a 3" log outside the top front edge, because I can't imagine them trying to balance on that thin, galvanized metal edge. The same "tree parts" will serve as the roosts and I'll probably add two because I like design overkill.

> Also, since the boxes are covered in the back, you will have to devise a way to collect.
I wonder if it would be most effective to cut that metal panel off. I planned on having a large flip-top lid at an angle over the nesting boxes (to access from the outside). I will have to see if (when I temporarily install them) if the metal "cover" impedes my ability to reach in and get the eggs out. Sliding the nest boxes out, especially in a Minnesota winter might prove to be a pain with my mittens.

I like your suggestion of putting one nest box against each 'end' wall and installing a "front" to keep the shavings in the third (in the middle)!!

It might be a good idea (for most climates) to put the nests in the "studded" room IN the wall that adjoins the run, however if I were to have to shovel snow in front of the run door every time to get them, I think I'd go crazy. I'll probably build an overhang over the hinged nest box area on the south wall on the "el".

> Are you intending the space on the west end "ell" (the part that looks like a repurposed book shelf on its side) to have more height?
Oh yes... I haven't begun to build those walls. I think I'm going to slope the roof in the opposite direction... toward the north wall. That's where the clean-out for that section will be (under the roost now that I've re-thought the direction of that section).

Thanks for stating the "basic" rules of "roosts must be higher than nest boxes" and "leave min 12" head clearance". For those of us newbies, basic knowledge is what we need.

> Unless you absolutely will always let the girls in the run all day, every day... I would plan on some food and water in the coop.
Can you think of a reason that they shouldn't be allowed access to the run every day all day? I know people use a pop door, but is the only reason for that (if there's a run attached) to keep the cold air from entering the coop?

There's more I need to respond to and more questions I have to ask, but I need to nab lunch...

Karen

 

[meralgia]

To address the rest of your post, I do plan on making the vertical PVC pipe feeders with the "eating" part in the coop. Would it be useful to make two... one for feed and a smaller one for scratch? It would be pretty easy to get a 45-degree angle and another small section to make the "filling" side on the outside with a cap on the top.

As for water, I thought about using nipples, but I have an extra bird bath heater (from the rabbits) so will probably do something with a bucket outside. Does the insulated drink cooler prevent the water from thawing??

I do have a roll of 1/2" hardware cloth for around the lower perimeter of the run and plan on burying it about a foot down.

> Not sure how you get a predator proof door in with log "sills".
I was planning on abutting the treated 2x4s into the log with metal brackets, two of them side by side as the jam. Then a hinged 2x2 door with hardware cloth at the bottom and chicken wire all the way up the door. I imagine the door will be about a foot up so the ice doesn't have to be chipped out every time I want to access the run. I've used dog clips for the rabbit enclosure at the bottom and middle, and that works pretty well to secure the door.

And I was going to make a separate door for the food and water so I don't have to use the 6' run door all the time.

 

[bruceha2000]

To address the rest of your post, I do plan on making the vertical PVC pipe feeders with the "eating" part in the coop. Would it be useful to make two... one for feed and a smaller one for scratch? It would be pretty easy to get a 45-degree angle and another small section to make the "filling" side on the outside with a cap on the top.

You should NOT do one for scratch. Scratch grains are 'candy' and should be no more than 10% of their diet. I give mine some when I shut the barn up for the night after a last egg check. I just toss it on the run floor. The chicken door is automatic, controlled by a photo sensor and they are up on the roosts on their own before it closes. You do need to have a container of oyster shell (once they are close to laying) and grit if they can't pick up enough off the ground. They figure how much is the right amount by themselves so these should be available free choice, in the run is fine since it sounds like they will be out there most days.

As for water, I thought about using nipples, but I have an extra bird bath heater (from the rabbits) so will probably do something with a bucket outside. Does the insulated drink cooler prevent the water from thawing??

I presume you mean freezing and yes ... as long as I have the stock tank heater in it when the ambient temp is above ~20F or the aquarium heater if below. The problem I have below about 15F is that the water freezes at the metal part of the nipple. I have mine on a circulator pump (REALLY small reptile waterfall pump). It worked great for the pipe in the nest box floor, completely insulated with only the metal part sticking out below. But then 2 of them just drained out the night before Thanksgiving last year and I didn't want to take the box apart to figure it out or replace the working parts so I made a quick 2 nipple pipe. Still have to fix the nest box waterer, I can't fathom why they would have failed (only 3 parts to those nipples, the big plastic part that clips over the 3/4" pipe, the metal nipple and a plastic part that twists with a 1/4 turn to hold the metal piece in the other part). I ended up with a heat lamp over the 1 gallon waterer which I filled daily, don't want to do that again. Besides being work, it is expensive to run that light. Since you are in MN (you can add that to your profile so people know when asking/answering climate dependent questions) you will need to figure out the winter water thing that works best for you. Some people have made "cookie tin water heaters"., you can find them described here on BYC.

I do have a roll of 1/2" hardware cloth for around the lower perimeter of the run and plan on burying it about a foot down.

> Not sure how you get a predator proof door in with log "sills".
I was planning on abutting the treated 2x4s into the log with metal brackets, two of them side by side as the jam. Then a hinged 2x2 door with hardware cloth at the bottom and chicken wire all the way up the door. I imagine the door will be about a foot up so the ice doesn't have to be chipped out every time I want to access the run. I've used dog clips for the rabbit enclosure at the bottom and middle, and that works pretty well to secure the door.

And I was going to make a separate door for the food and water so I don't have to use the 6' run door all the time.

Good plan, the less work it is, the more likely it gets done! I figure 5 minutes in the morning. I give them BOSS (black oil sunflower seed) and whatever we chicken 'treats' we have from dinner the night before. I rake through the litter on the floor of the coop, give them food if the feeder is low. Basically a half gallon (10 birds) a day in the winter, the same every 3 days in the summer when they are out sucking down grasses and bugs all day. Roost time is another 5 minutes to check for eggs, close people doors and toss them the scratch.

Thanks, Bruce, for all of your wisdom!!

> The current studded part is their indoor "day room" for when they can't be in the run?
That's right. I thought about not putting a wall on the studded portion facing the run (for early Summer to mid-Fall living) and adding one when the temps start to drop. I thought it might be fun for them to squeeze between the 16" OC studs and fly down into the run or across the run to a roost I'm planning on putting in the NW corner of the run.

16" isn't a squeeze, it is a nice wide door!

Unless you are VERY VERY SURE that NOTHING can get into the run, you WANT the coop to be that secure, hence the chicken door into the run from a "Fort Knox" coop. Nothing worse (and I've luckily not seen it personally) than having all your chickens slaughtered in their home with no chance to escape. They will naturally head into the coop as the sun starts to fade which is why the photo controlled chicken door works, they are already "in bed" before it closes.

> Hardware cloth on the south wall with a slide in from the side shower door?
That's right. The shower door will be rotated 90 degrees. My plan with the shower door is to remove the door from late May to mid-October. Then I'll slide the door in come mid-October. In late November, when the snow starts flying, I'll put rigid pink insulation between the studs and a plywood wall on top of that (with a window cut out so they still get light through the shower door). In mid-April, I'll pull the plywood off and take the shower door out again in late May. What do you think?

They really don't need an insulated coop in the winter, the IMPORTANT thing is that there be no drafts through the coop. There are open front coop designs that have ONLY hardware cloth on the front of the coop (they have some short walls below these "windows"). The rest of the coop is solid and the roosts are in the back so any wind blowing by the front doesn't get to them. I would think the shower door would be really useful in the winter to let in light and naturally ward off the bitter cold. I assume MN is like VT, it is coldest when it is clear and clear means sun and solar gain. Even my Cubalaya, patently NOT a winter breed are fine at -20F, they just puff up and eat a lot like all the other girls. Also, since the sun is higher in the summer, you can create an overhang or awning to keep the sun from hitting the shower door full force and over heating the coop.

Thanks for your suggestion about a channel top and bottom... That will save on wood for sure and keep the bedding in that area contained so it doesn't clog up the sliding action of the shower door.

With the amount of sunlight they're getting, I'm concerned about how I might need to wall off the nesting boxes. What do you think? A lot of what I've read indicates that they need a dark, cozy area to lay their eggs. I might be able to put a piece of plywood at an angle so they're directed toward the back wall of the "el". I think I'll put the roost in the North wall and the nests in the south wall (it's reversed in the OP).

I think all chickens are different. I have a totally enclosed community box (4' long, one opening in the middle, so interior walls) that some of the girls use but most prefer the open boxes, no top at all. Both are in the coop and it is a repurposed horse stall set back from the outside wall so it is always less light in there than outside. I've seen many pictures of covered nest boxes with curtains in the front (which you could do) but I don't know that they are all that picky about being in the dark. I think the enclosed nature of the box sides gives them the feeling of "protection" they want.

If you don't want to HAVE to go into the run to get the eggs, then by all means put the nest boxes in the ell, I just figured not having to deal with weather while doing chores by having everything accessible in the run would be useful. I have no choice but to shovel to get in the barn. Had a big one last winter, had to wear my snow shoes just to get to the barn. Talk about a pain: on at the house, off at the barn, on at the barn, off at the house, repeat because I forgot something

And I check for eggs several times a day when it is below freezing. They stay warm in the nest for a bit and can actually freeze some without undue issues. The whites are a little runnier (like those store bought egg factory things we don't eat any more

) but are fine otherwise. The only egg I tossed was one that froze so much that the shell cracked. The crack was obvious (and was a Y shape from a hen named Yue, figured she finally decided to monogram her eggs for me so I could tell her's from Zia's!) when I took it from the nest (it was many hours since it was laid) but the crack was barely perceptible when it got to room temp. But the yolk was the texture of a hard boiled egg. Chickens like to lay where another chicken has laid (thus the use of fake eggs in the nests) and if one lays some time after another has laid, the egg gets warmed back up by the second bird. Not something you can count on though.

> Is this what you mean?
About the size of the rabbit nesting boxes? Yes. I will have to put a 3" log outside the top front edge, because I can't imagine them trying to balance on that thin, galvanized metal edge. The same "tree parts" will serve as the roosts and I'll probably add two because I like design overkill.

> Also, since the boxes are covered in the back, you will have to devise a way to collect.
I wonder if it would be most effective to cut that metal panel off. I planned on having a large flip-top lid at an angle over the nesting boxes (to access from the outside). I will have to see if (when I temporarily install them) if the metal "cover" impedes my ability to reach in and get the eggs out. Sliding the nest boxes out, especially in a Minnesota winter might prove to be a pain with my mittens.

I didn't know if you wanted to make them permanently unusable for rabbits. You could cut the tops off but if they are stainless, you might find that difficult. Stainless steel is really hard.

I like your suggestion of putting one nest box against each 'end' wall and installing a "front" to keep the shavings in the third (in the middle)!!

It might be a good idea (for most climates) to put the nests in the "studded" room IN the wall that adjoins the run, however if I were to have to shovel snow in front of the run door every time to get them, I think I'd go crazy. I'll probably build an overhang over the hinged nest box area on the south wall on the "el".

> Are you intending the space on the west end "ell" (the part that looks like a repurposed book shelf on its side) to have more height?
Oh yes... I haven't begun to build those walls. I think I'm going to slope the roof in the opposite direction... toward the north wall. That's where the clean-out for that section will be (under the roost now that I've re-thought the direction of that section).

Yep, pitch the roof away from the side the nest box access is so you don't have rain and snow coming down on you.

Thanks for stating the "basic" rules of "roosts must be higher than nest boxes" and "leave min 12" head clearance". For those of us newbies, basic knowledge is what we need.

> Unless you absolutely will always let the girls in the run all day, every day... I would plan on some food and water in the coop.
Can you think of a reason that they shouldn't be allowed access to the run every day all day? I know people use a pop door, but is the only reason for that (if there's a run attached) to keep the cold air from entering the coop?

It goes back to the potential for predators. The "pop" door is to make sure nothing can get in the coop and has nothing to do with cold air infiltration. If they are very safe in the run, or pretty safe and you are willing to take a chance on losing one, then I would let them in the run any time they want to be there during the day. I let mine run around outside any time someone is home but we aren't watching them and I did lose one to a hawk or fox not 30' from the door to the barn in April. The question then goes back only to whether someone watching them for you is willing to make sure they get back in the coop at night. It isn't as big a deal if you have an auto chicken door since it will close whether there are people around or not. BTW, an easy way to get them to go in when YOU want them to is to teach them YOU are their "dealer" for scratch or BOSS. Mine love both and it is a lot easier to get them to go to the barn mid day when you are offering "candy".

Bruce

 

[meralgia]

> You should NOT do one for scratch. Scratch grains are 'candy'
Whoops. Did I say scratch? I meant grit.

> below about 15F is that the water freezes at the metal part of the nipple.
I wondered if those nipples were useful in the dead of winter. Does it drip on the floor between uses or is it so negligible that it doesn't matter? We had a doozy with that polar vortex (oh, and thanks for the reminder of editing my profile to include MN) that I just kept doing the birdbath heaters in each of the tubs for the rabbits. Surely I'll look up the "cookie tin water heaters". Thanks for the tip!

> Besides being work, it is expensive to run that light
I'll bet. The City has rules that say it can't be below 33 degrees in the coop. I thought about getting a reptile blanket and sandwiching it between the treated plywood and the flimsy back-of-the-bookshelf plywood. I wonder if that's unsafe. I know they do a similar thing with radiant floor heating but it's not sandwiched.

> They really don't need an insulated coop in the winter, the IMPORTANT thing is that there be no drafts through the coop.
I have a plan to make a fresh air vent at the top of the coop but the rest will likely be tight as a drum. What do you think?

> I would think the shower door would be really useful in the winter to let in light and naturally ward off the bitter cold.
Do you think it's unnecessary to do the pink insulation and plywood in front of that during the coldest part of winter then?

> I check for eggs several times a day when it is below freezing.
Do they generally lay at predictable times?

> I didn't know if you wanted to make them permanently unusable for rabbits.
I wasn't planning on breeding much anymore; the rabbit who might be pregnant has a modified nest box in the back of her cage because I couldn't remember that I put the real nest boxes in the back of the other shed for the winter.

> Yep, pitch the roof away from the side the nest box access is so you don't have rain and snow coming down on you.
I thought about that last night, but in order for the roost side to be the highest, the roof would almost have to come down over the nest box. I could install a diverter strip for the rain and muck like they did over the entryway on my roof many moons ago. Do you think that might work or should I reconsider the pitch of the roof to go 90 degrees the other way. I mean, right now with the roost on the north wall and the nest boxes on the south, if I ran the pitch from the highest on the east and lower on the west wall that would certainly prevent the rain from going directly over the nest box area but it might look odd with the way the other section is constructed. I may have to be creative... but that's not a stretch.

 

[meralgia]

> Yep, pitch the roof away from the side the nest box access is so you don't have rain and snow coming down on you.

I was drawing up a few scenarios to help with the tall roosting and rain runoff problem, and I think I've struck a good balance. The corner roof will be pitched in a funny way due to the sloping roof on the studded portion. The roost will be against the east wall (abutting the run). Most of the water will flow off the run at the same angle on the side and a little might drip off over the oddly-pitched angle between the sections of coop. It's hard to explain, but I think as I build the coop you'll see what I mean. Thanks for all your help... the saga continues!

 

[bruceha2000]

> You should NOT do one for scratch. Scratch grains are 'candy'
Whoops. Did I say scratch? I meant grit.

You don't need a big grit or oyster shell thing like you do for feed. My girls don't go through 5 pounds of oyster shell in a year. I have it in a small metal bread pan (was in the barn when we bought the place). They have access to the ground all the time so they find their own grit.

> below about 15F is that the water freezes at the metal part of the nipple.
I wondered if those nipples were useful in the dead of winter. Does it drip on the floor between uses or is it so negligible that it doesn't matter? We had a doozy with that polar vortex (oh, and thanks for the reminder of editing my profile to include MN) that I just kept doing the birdbath heaters in each of the tubs for the rabbits. Surely I'll look up the "cookie tin water heaters". Thanks for the tip!

They don't drip between uses but it is good to have a trough under the pipe because the water drips when the chicken bumps the metal pin, they don't get every drop. I don't have a worry about this with my "in run" 2 nipple pipe, there was an ice mound maybe 3" high under it by the time the temps rose to above freezing. I have one under the pipe (the one I need to fix) in the coop.

> Besides being work, it is expensive to run that light
I'll bet. The City has rules that say it can't be below 33 degrees in the coop. I thought about getting a reptile blanket and sandwiching it between the treated plywood and the flimsy back-of-the-bookshelf plywood. I wonder if that's unsafe. I know they do a similar thing with radiant floor heating but it's not sandwiched.

Pardon my "french" but ***?? Not below 33F??? Whoever made the rules has ZERO experience with raising chickens. What do they think non migrating wild birds do in the winter, book a room at the Hilton? Given that rule, they should pay your coop heating bills. I can show you pictures of my Cubalayas in the summer and in the winter, perfectly content in both and twice their summer "size" in the winter. Make a new rule. Everyone in charge of making and enforcing that 33F rule MUST put on proper clothing for downhill skiing (I know, not in MN) and then go hang out in the Mall of America for 24 hours. They can NOT unzip, unbutton, etc. Then watch them die of heat stroke. Chickens "take off" their coats exactly once a year, replacing them make sure they have good insulation for the winter. One of my Black Australorps didn't moult until the end of January - the COLDEST time of year, we are talking -15F to -20F several days and rarely above 10F before she was fully feathered again. Bird was half feathered and if she were cold she could have hung out near the heat lamp over the waterer. She NEVER EVER DID!!!!!!! NONE of my chickens spent ANY time near the waterer except to drink. NEVER!

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!!

I can not imagine how expensive it would be to keep a coop properly ventilated and at 33F when the ambient temp is below 32F. And I suspect WELL below in MN for most of the winter as it is in Vermont. You might want to look into passive solar heating, especially with that shower door. Containers of water, sand, concrete pavers piled high on the east wall, anything that can absorb heat from the sun during the day and release it at night. Maybe you can get a thermometer to put in the window of the coop, readable from outside and "broken" to read 33F no matter what the temp is inside.

Radiant floor heat is usually circulating hot water, not electric. Actually, that is what I have in my nest box with the water pipe built in the bottom. The tube runs from the drink cooler to the water nipple pipe and returns via tubing that is looped (in channels cut in a piece of rigid insulation) under the 1/4" plywood floor of the nest boxes. Haven't done any testing but I figured it would keep the nest boxes warmer and the eggs would not freeze as quickly. Of course all the pine shavings probably insulated it from the eggs pretty well and it isn't doing much to heat the bottom of the eggs

.

I would not put any form of electric heat between sheets of plywood. In fact I would be very surprised if it is not illegal. One short and FOOM, up goes the coop and you have baked chicken for dinner. You might ask in the threads where people talk about heating their coops. Make sure you give the stupid city requirement that it not be below 33F or you will get a raft of "heat" from people like me

> They really don't need an insulated coop in the winter, the IMPORTANT thing is that there be no drafts through the coop.
I have a plan to make a fresh air vent at the top of the coop but the rest will likely be tight as a drum. What do you think?

Ventilation works only if there is a way for outside air to get in to replace the air going out. The concern with regard to ventilation is that chicken poop has a lot of ammonia and ammonia build up in the air will kill them. That is why the open front (Look Ma, open to the world and NO DEAD CHICKENS EVEN AT -20F!!!) coops work well. The ammonia escapes with the general draft free air exchange. At a minimum, you need a vent low and one high so all that heat you are paying for will rise, taking coop air out the top, replaced with COLD AS THE NORTH POLE air from the bottom. You need to make sure that the path the air takes does NOT go over the birds on the roost. Feathers insulated well, feathers that are blown open do not. My girls don't mind cold and they don't mind wind as long as they are not concurrent. The other REALLY IMPORTANT reason to have good ventilation is humidity. The girls put out a lot and if it doesn't go away, they get frost bite. Again, this likely NEVER happens in an open air coop. Now I suppose at 33F there won't be frostbite but the chickens are breathing is whatever air is available in the coop so you don't want it 'stale'.

> I would think the shower door would be really useful in the winter to let in light and naturally ward off the bitter cold.
Do you think it's unnecessary to do the pink insulation and plywood in front of that during the coldest part of winter then?

I think you need to try with the shower door in place for the solar heat and plan for how to insulate it if it is losing too much heat during the night. Maybe get some insulated shades you can put on the inside of the shower door with a 1/2" hardware cloth "wall" a couple of inches away so the girls not peck them?

> I check for eggs several times a day when it is below freezing.
Do they generally lay at predictable times?

Yes, they predictably lay whenever the heck their body tells them to.

There is a whole active thread on "when to chickens lay?". MOST of the time it will be during daylight hours and the "guideline is they lay every 25 to 26 hours, then skip a day once they lay late. But EVERY chicken and breed is different so the real answer is NO. I've been finding an egg under the roost in the morning a day or 3 a week for the last few weeks, Usually one of the Ancona but I've found a Black Australorp egg too. I CAN see the progressive time pattern in some of my girls but it sure isn't "between 8 and 10 AM" It is ANYTIME between sunrise and sunset, except when they drop one while asleep (?) on the roost. BTW, I'm using deep litter so they fall nearly 4' into a lot of pine shavings. Only one ever broke and it hit a lower roost 'step' on the way down.

> I didn't know if you wanted to make them permanently unusable for rabbits.
I wasn't planning on breeding much anymore; the rabbit who might be pregnant has a modified nest box in the back of her cage because I couldn't remember that I put the real nest boxes in the back of the other shed for the winter.

> Yep, pitch the roof away from the side the nest box access is so you don't have rain and snow coming down on you.
I thought about that last night, but in order for the roost side to be the highest, the roof would almost have to come down over the nest box. I could install a diverter strip for the rain and muck like they did over the entryway on my roof many moons ago. Do you think that might work or should I reconsider the pitch of the roof to go 90 degrees the other way. I mean, right now with the roost on the north wall and the nest boxes on the south, if I ran the pitch from the highest on the east and lower on the west wall that would certainly prevent the rain from going directly over the nest box area but it might look odd with the way the other section is constructed. I may have to be creative... but that's not a stretch.

> Yep, pitch the roof away from the side the nest box access is so you don't have rain and snow coming down on you.

I was drawing up a few scenarios to help with the tall roosting and rain runoff problem, and I think I've struck a good balance. The corner roof will be pitched in a funny way due to the sloping roof on the studded portion. The roost will be against the east wall (abutting the run). Most of the water will flow off the run at the same angle on the side and a little might drip off over the oddly-pitched angle between the sections of coop. It's hard to explain, but I think as I build the coop you'll see what I mean. Thanks for all your help... the saga continues!

Whatever is needed to keep water from going in the nest boxes via the access door (closed or open for collecting) and (if Sylvester shows up here) keeps the rain off you while you collect eggs.

Bruce

 

[meralgia]

 

[bruceha2000]

Here's what I'm wondering about the el... If I install a shower door on the west wall with a ventilation strip at the bottom and a shower door on the east wall with a ventilation strip at the top, should I put the roosts against the west wall to avoid the draft in the winter? Conversely, if I install a shower door on the west wall with a ventilation strip at the top and a shower door on the east wall with a ventilation strip at the bottom, the roosts should go against the east wall to avoid the draft in the winter?

Are you planning 2 shower doors in the ell plus the one on the south wall in the studded room?
You definitely have the right idea with a high & low vent design with the roosts on the same side as the low vent since the air will flow under the roosts away from that wall and up to the vent on the opposing wall. You would need some kind of 'roof' over the low vent to keep out rain and snow, the high one presumably is already covered by a roof overhang. The birds would be OK on the roosts because that draft would not be blowing over them except if they were on the floor near the low vent.

A lot of coops have all venting above roost level, I have no idea how one calculates the minimum number of square inches needed in the wall or ridge and I expect it depends not only on the number of cubic feet in the coop but also the number and size of the birds since they are the ones creating the ammonia. My coop is ~10x12x8 high with 2 parallel roosts at 4' across the back wall. The front and sides are 4' walls, open above that, the "ceiling" is the floor of the barn above the coop

This kind of gives you the idea. The people door (open) and that "panel" to the left of it above the original chicken door are both covered in plastic in the winter. The "window" to the left on that wall and similar window on the right behind the open door are not covered. The wall where that ladder looking thing (have no idea what it is why someone put that in) is covered with plastic in the winter from the wall up 3' so there is a ~1' gap at the top. The side opposite it is the same. The back wall is all wood. I leave the people door open during the day, closed at night for predator proofing. The plastic is not installed in this picture.


There is no way to keep that at 33F+ unless you are Bill Gates and can afford to heat the outside world.

You're probably right... I have to run electricity to the coop and add one of those red light/heater bulbs (on recommendation from the few folks I've spoken with). I expect to install a GFCI under the coop and cover all of the cords with PVC like I do with the rabbits to avoid incidental destruction. I will try my best not to use it, but if the City comes around and asks about it at least it's installed. : /

I was using a 250W red heat lamp to keep the water from freezing in the corner of the next stall over (to the left in the picture). It was hung offset just over the 1 gallon waterer in a triangular (2D floor area) space ~3' on each side and ~ 4' high. The space above 4' was covered (not airtight but better than nothing) partly with a piece of plywood and partly with a saddle pad . Two sides of the vertical triangle are plywood stud walls (plywood only on the 'outside' so no insulation), the other is a plywood stall door, 4' high at the top, the bottom of which is ~1' above the floor so that is the only truly open part. That 250W lamp is 1 kW every 4 hours, 6 kW a day, 180 kW a month. $27 at our $0.15/kWH and just barely kept the water in the 'saucer' part of the waterer from freezing on the side where the lamp hung (the water inside did not freeze) on the coldest days. Water on the other "side" of the saucer froze so even that small space was not over 33F.

My guess is the "chicken Nazis" don't come by to check because a lot of people would be either broke or have dead chickens from lack of ventilation.

Bruce