Foraging And Feed Effeciency Comparing Breeds

[gjensen]

I would not choose American Games for myself. They are very small, and are not especially productive. We would be hard pressed to find any breed that would do as well on their own, however.

I tend to look at birds as pieces and parts of a larger genetic puzzle, so to speak. I believe that the games could be interesting in a two or three way cross.

If breeding a pure breed is not important, there are any number of interesting crosses. A male from a commercial sex linked laying strain could be a good match for an oversized meaty exhibition strain. It is possible to have fast growing birds that flesh out well early, with what we have available. The sex linked cockerels grow exceptionally fast. Even some of the pullets from a colored broiler strain could be bred from. There is a lot of genetic material to work with.

If the production of meat and eggs is the only concern, there is a lot of possibilities.

If the desire is to have a reasonable layer that largely fend for themselves and was good mothers, it would be hard to argue against game fowl in the mix.

 

[Arielle]

And you are several steps ahead of me

We have cleared areas but are starting to clear out brush as well....hard work!

I have become less and less married to the wish for chickens. Poultry yes, but perhaps ducks or turkeys or some combination might be a more practical way to feed my family on a continuous basis. I'm considering how to always have something laying, hatching and growing....while not coming out of pocket too too much. If something ate nothing but brambles, laid eggs all winter, brooded a clutch and stayed tender I would be happy to pay any price for stock, lol.

Hold tight to your "pipedream", we are travelling the same road.

M

ROFL

Actually duck comes really close to this!! Muscovies are ready for the freezer as soon as 8 weeks, that is 2 months old. They free range digging their bills into leaf litter every where; eat turkey pellets; love a little swim in the smallest of buckets; and lay eggs much of the year. Having said this, these are more meat ducks than layers = far better layers out there in a duck form. THe muscovies are quiet and can only hiss, no quacking. A bit untrusting of people but domesticated enough to work with them. Very hardy. Rarely have a loss. Actually only had a few ducklings die due to the recent cold ( a hen though now was a good time to hatch 16 of 16 eggs. and another hen we just found setting on more eggs. WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!! A snow storm is arriving tonight!) Muscovies are perching ducks so they like to roost up high if possible so I train mine to go in a chicken coop for lock up. THey do need reminders of which coop sometimes. SO they often camp out in a new coop time to time, when I dont feel like moving them back to their designated coop. .

Some ducks are better layers as they were selected for laying. IF you find a good winter alyer let me know-- that is another of my pipedreams.

 

[maranfarmer563]

I just sold a flock of12 mascovies for 120.00. So extra ducklings could pay the taxes LOL

 

[Arielle]

I would not choose American Games for myself. They are very small, and are not especially productive. We would be hard pressed to find any breed that would do as well on their own, however.

I tend to look at birds as pieces and parts of a larger genetic puzzle, so to speak. I believe that the games could be interesting in a two or three way cross.

If breeding a pure breed is not important, there are any number of interesting crosses. A male from a commercial sex linked laying strain could be a good match for an oversized meaty exhibition strain. It is possible to have fast growing birds that flesh out well early, with what we have available. The sex linked cockerels grow exceptionally fast. Even some of the pullets from a colored broiler strain could be bred from. There is a lot of genetic material to work with.

If the production of meat and eggs is the only concern, there is a lot of possibilities.

If the desire is to have a reasonable layer that largely fend for themselves and was good mothers, it would be hard to argue against game fowl in the mix.

All very good points George!!

We often forget that most of the meat (and egg )industry is based on cross breds. FOr a good reason!! I"m thinking of easy crosses like using a brahma in topical areas as they are hardier, and were used in areas like TX on the English breeds, like angus to make a brangus. To capture the best of both. Bth the ANgus and the brhama were developed to do well in other areas of the world and then importedinto the US as we did not have any beef breeds other than the buffalo; and these pure breds didnt do as well as in the mother country. BUt to cross them the next generations were far better than the parent stock. Many others, just too tired to think of them off the top of my head. Targee in sheep; Polypay. THese 2 sheep breeds were crosses that became a purebred.

A few top producing herds of pure breds to supply the best for the cross bred herds. THe cross bred hers far out number the purebreds to supply our food.

What I marvel at is which breed to cross with which for a productive f1 progeny. You mentioned a cross George that makes total sense based on what little I know about chickens.

BOb blosl talked aobut using MR silky to make cross bred broodies. THe silky ads the strong broody nature, and the heritage breed adds a bigger frame to cover more eggs than a pure silky. Now cross in some game!!!

Many good reasons to use cross breds.

 

[gjensen]

And you are several steps ahead of me

We have cleared areas but are starting to clear out brush as well....hard work!

I have become less and less married to the wish for chickens. Poultry yes, but perhaps ducks or turkeys or some combination might be a more practical way to feed my family on a continuous basis. I'm considering how to always have something laying, hatching and growing....while not coming out of pocket too too much. If something ate nothing but brambles, laid eggs all winter, brooded a clutch and stayed tender I would be happy to pay any price for stock, lol.

Hold tight to your "pipedream", we are travelling the same road.

M

If you like ducks and geese, they are better at converting green forage into flesh. Some do not like to eat waterfowl, but I find them to be a nice change of pace, every now and then. I like how independent geese and Muscovy ducks can be. I do not have a lot of experience with waterfowl, so I dare not say a lot.

I enjoy Turkeys, and find their behavior amusing. I see some of the same challenges with chickens and turkeys, but that is not to say we could not be successful with either. We can.

I see chickens as an integral part of a larger plan. I only prefer to flow with the more natural seasonal rhythm. I agree with the old model, and not try to make them do too much. My position changes when we can grow them a large percentage of their feed. Poultry are very efficient producers, but production on any scale requires affordable grain.

Another option is to buy bulk grain, grind it ourselves, and include a purchased balancer. This is a more practical option if we are feeding other livestock.

Many strains can do quite well on good forage, supplemented with a grain mix. They may not lay quite as well, but they may lay enough. I would only warn to be mindful of vitamin/mineral deficiencies. Almost always the environment is short on energy which is solved with the grain mix. In the south, we can have green forage all year round. Once we know our birds, we can handle them and monitor their condition.

A few large clean compost piles can provide a surprising amount of food for our birds if they are allowed to scratch through them periodically.

In an integrated system and smart management, they can still be quite "sustainable".

 

[gjensen]

All very good points George!!

We often forget that most of the meat (and egg )industry is based on cross breds. FOr a good reason!! I"m thinking of easy crosses like using a brahma in topical areas as they are hardier, and were used in areas like TX on the English breeds, like angus to make a brangus. To capture the best of both. Bth the ANgus and the brhama were developed to do well in other areas of the world and then importedinto the US as we did not have any beef breeds other than the buffalo; and these pure breds didnt do as well as in the mother country. BUt to cross them the next generations were far better than the parent stock. Many others, just too tired to think of them off the top of my head. Targee in sheep; Polypay. THese 2 sheep breeds were crosses that became a purebred.

A few top producing herds of pure breds to supply the best for the cross bred herds. THe cross bred hers far out number the purebreds to supply our food.

What I marvel at is which breed to cross with which for a productive f1 progeny. You mentioned a cross George that makes total sense based on what little I know about chickens.

BOb blosl talked aobut using MR silky to make cross bred broodies. THe silky ads the strong broody nature, and the heritage breed adds a bigger frame to cover more eggs than a pure silky. Now cross in some game!!!

Many good reasons to use cross breds.

The key to successful crosses is "inbred" parents. Not only for genetic vigor, but reliable results. The commercial industry depends on tightly bred flocks for their crosses.

We could never produce more feed efficient producers than they, but it does not mean we cannot apply some of the principals behind their concepts. We can also access the genetics. Ironic when you consider sex linked cockerels are considered a waste product. Especially considering how much they can "improve" an existing flock.

We have access to genetics that we did not 100 years ago.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: While it is true we cannot produce more feed efficient pigs, chickens and cattle than the industry does, I have decided that raising animals in a more sustainable manner has great value. THe stock are not overly crowded so that they can move freely. WHich reduces the need for traditional, or modern, antibiotics, wormers, etc. Even the manure is distributed over the land, so that it is not kept in piles until it is removed. To where can be an issue for many.

Funny you mention the sex llinks. I have 3 roosters that are sons of a mean sexlink, Raptor, who went to freezer camp not soon enough. He earned his name at 3 weeks old and lived up to it. HIs 3 sons are from my first chicken, an EE that was taken by a racoon this past summer. SHe laid brown eggs so the 3 sons are brown egg layers with an EE comb. Good boys all. Keep track of the flock and stand guard all day.

THey share duties with about 7 other roosters. INteresting to see the pecking order. One Am rooster is a bully but gets pushed around by the top3 listed above. THe BO boy is sweet and too sweet to stand up to any other rooster. THe SS holds his ground, most of the time. In general they get along because they can move and put 10 feet or 50 feet between them.

I am thankful that we bought this little piece of land long ago and might be able to make it more productive.

 

[Beer can]

My father always had rose comb Rhode Island Reds when I was a kid. We didn't have much money so they free ranged for most of their food. Cracked corn used to be cheap, so that's the only thing they ate that they didn't get themeselves and very little of it. And their eggs were always good. And the old ones were meaty, my mother usually just canned them. The old breed RIReds were good mothers, always hatched out their own and raised them. The roos were good as the moms I can remember all the cackleing they would make when they found a worm or bug, all the little ones would come running to see what kind of 'goodie' dad found. He also had lots of rabbits and picked them armloads of grass during warm months, and rabbit feed mixed with cracked corn to streach it out during winter months. He even gave them apple tree branches to naw on just like their wild cousins eat when pickens are slim.

 

[Arielle]

THanks for the share Beer can. Where did your family have their farm? NY?

I will have to remember to give the rabbit some branches to munch on. I dont have apple, but maybe he would like some birch. We have plenty of that.

 

[gjensen]

While it is true we cannot produce more feed efficient pigs, chickens and cattle than the industry does, I have decided that raising animals in a more sustainable manner has great value. THe stock are not overly crowded so that they can move freely. WHich reduces the need for traditional, or modern, antibiotics, wormers, etc. Even the manure is distributed over the land, so that it is not kept in piles until it is removed. To where can be an issue for many.

Funny you mention the sex llinks. I have 3 roosters that are sons of a mean sexlink, Raptor, who went to freezer camp not soon enough. He earned his name at 3 weeks old and lived up to it. HIs 3 sons are from my first chicken, an EE that was taken by a racoon this past summer. SHe laid brown eggs so the 3 sons are brown egg layers with an EE comb. Good boys all. Keep track of the flock and stand guard all day.

THey share duties with about 7 other roosters. INteresting to see the pecking order. One Am rooster is a bully but gets pushed around by the top3 listed above. THe BO boy is sweet and too sweet to stand up to any other rooster. THe SS holds his ground, most of the time. In general they get along because they can move and put 10 feet or 50 feet between them.

I am thankful that we bought this little piece of land long ago and might be able to make it more productive.

I agree. I prefer "our model" over theirs. I am not foolish enough to think that we can feed the masses though.

I am not so certain about the reduced need for wormers etc. No chickens are immune, and the parasite load builds the longer the birds are kept on location. Rotation is helpful. I am not limitless concerning where I rotate, so I worm before they go into lay and @ the molt. I try to rotate them then. Some certainly are more vulnerable than others, I agree.
I do not believe that antibiotics is part of good management overall. That is a general statement, but I do not buy them.

To make good use of a male from a laying strain would require prudent selection in the following generations. I am with you, and will not tolerate a "man fighter". There is no good reason to tolerate it, and especially perpetuate it.