Founder in mare..

[patandchickens]

Well bluerose, everyone is entitled to their opinions

I would just like to add a little of the other side of the story:

Quote:
Scientific research has failed to find any difference between the hardness of white vs black feet.

OTOH there *is* a lot of decent anecdotal evidence to the contrary -- lotsa horses with 1 white foot that is splittier or crumblier or doesn't hold shoes as well as the others, and lotsa good long-time farriers who swear that their experience is that there's a difference.

Since research only tests certain parameters and averages over a very mixed bunch of horses, as a scientist I would not entirely reject the possibility that there *may* be a real difference in many cases. WHo knows.

2. Standing in mud (as long as it is clean mud- ie, not mud created from urine/manure but water) is typically good for the foot

Well, the worst thing is repeated wetting and drying, especially if the wetting involves clay (as mud often does). Which most horses turned out in muddy paddocks do experience. Not that 24-hr-a-day wet feet is good either. But they ARE bad (are you by any chance living in a dry climate, bluerose? certainly in dry climates, keeping the foot from getting too dry can indeed be advantageous.)

A chronically soaked foot takes any little tiny weakness in the foot and magnifies it hugely, so that if you have a horse whose feet are going to crack or split or crumble, they are much more likely to when wet. You could argue that horses should be trimmed all their lives so well that they have no such weaknesses, but, meanwhile back in the real world...

3. Hoof supplements do very, very little to help and really only serve to 'petrify' the foot- so yes, it helps the horn be harder but NOT healthier... A good trim, lots of movement and heel first landings, and a low sugar diet is the way to good hoof health. ESPECIALLY so in a potentially metabolically challenged horse.

And yet, horses with a good trim, lots of movement and (well, heel first landings comes back to a good trim) still sometimes do EVEN BETTER with a good supplement. Also, it is not always *possible* to get the very very best farrier in the world, and a good supplement can give you an extra margin of error. I am NOT in favor of supplements in general, personally, but this is the one that I would consider quite well justified in trying (from both personal experience, scientific research and the cumulative experience of a lot a lot of good horsemen over the years).

I would urge people not to listen to either bluerose OR me

but to do some reading and mull over the evidence themselves, weight it with the experience of good horsemen who've been around a long time and kept a lot of horses real sound in hard work (always remembering that they're not *guaranteed* to be right), and make up your own minds

JMO,

Pat​

 

[bluerose]

I did post a few links so people can research for themselves. (OK, yes, they are all to 'barefoot propaganda' :roll: websites, but they all actually discuss the anatomy and the healthy hoof... unlike most farrier websites... wonder why?)

Since you seem open to debate:

If white feet are softer than black, what happens with striped feet, then?

I can provide anecdotes on my own horses whose feet I see and handle every day.

Yes, I am in a dry climate, but many people who agree with me on the beneficial aspects of mud are in very wet climates. Note that a relatively healthy hoof is required or else you run the risk of weak lamina falling apart- if they are grown in thick and strong, it takes a LOT of force/effort to break them.

The vast majority of the time, chipping is the hoof attempting to self-trim. It is ugly, but effective... one should always, always, always aim to trim BEFORE the hoof gets so long that it needs to chip. Often, if it needs to chip, there is other damage done. Why wait until damage is done to fix it- why not prevent it?

Oh- I am in the real world, believe me.

The thing that is really problematic about hoof supplements is it's effect on the frog: essentially, it 'petrifies' it. I have not experienced this myself as a trimmer, not having any horses on hoof supplements, but many trimmers will say that they only suggest hoof supplements in extreme cases... because of the effect on the frog. (I actually know of an excellent trimmer who, IIRC, has broken knives on frogs that had been on high doses of hoof supplements.)

I (unfortunately) have yet to see a decent bare foot from a farrier... and if you use farrier and trimmer interchangeably I encourage you to make a distinction, because it's like calling a surgeon a pathologist... many farriers tend to trim up and slap a shoe on, or add pads and silicone, or wedges, or, or, or.... most trimmers try to heal the hoof- often from the damage done by corrective shoes.

Mostly... I just find it sad that there is such a huge rift in the hoofcare 'industry'... and it is always the horses that suffer.

 

[Flyman39]

ajcress,

I haven't fooled with horses for a long time and don't know a lot about founders but I watched a program on RFD TV the other night and they were working on a founders hooves. They were using some kind of an epoxy that hardened like steel and were putting it on the horses hooves instead of shoes. I can't remember the name of the show but it was on RFD. Maybe this might help you if you research it?? Just a fellow WV Mountaineer trying to help you out.

PS

It is a shame what goes on in horse trading these days. Some people will do anything. I had a friend who bought a racking horse because of the way he rolled his feet so high only to find out later the guy had doped his feet with mustard oil. Real scumbag. I have heard of many people buying drugged horses. I am sorry for you that you got treated this way.

 

[Momo]

If this were my mare I would pull the shoes, give her a good barefoot trim (something you need a barefoot trimmer for, not a regular farrier, and personally I would stay away from most Strasser trimmers as being too invasive) and boot her up with hoof boots and pads which are available online from Easycare. Absolutely no grazing and no grain or concentrates, just plenty of free choice grass hay (possibly some alfalfa mix if she needs it but most don't). Shoes (of any sort) are NOT the answer to the underlying problem. I know it's hard to go barefoot when your horse is sore, but trust me; I've been there. My gelding (in my avatar) used to be sore in a soft paddock without shoes, but now he goes everywhere in our rocky mountain area barefoot. The difference between a proper barefoot trim and a regular farrier trim is subtle at first glance but immense in application. I trim my horses myself and it's not that difficult to learn. It's cheaper than shoes and the benefit to the horses is incalculable. Hoof boots with pads are a wonderful thing. Check out those websites; they are filled with useful information that you would do well to absorb. Also there's a barefoot trim group at Yahoo that is fabulous. If you join the group you can post photos of her feet and get an incredible amount of help and support.

 

[patandchickens]

HI bluerose,

If white feet are softer than black, what happens with striped feet, then?

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows, as in Is Definitely Documentably Right. Anyone can have their theories of course. What does that have to do with anything, though, other than being an interesting question????

Note that a relatively healthy hoof is required or else you run the risk of weak lamina falling apart- if they are grown in thick and strong, it takes a LOT of force/effort to break them.

Well, that is the thing. In the real world, not everyone's horses hooves are in good shape -- thus, not everyone's horses' hooves are going to be safe in mud. (In fact, imperfect hooves are going to be further damaged by standing in mud or other very wet footing.)

Likewise, in the real world, not everyone has an exceptional farrier (or barefoot trimmer, if you prefer to give them a separate category name). Not every REGION even HAS a good farrier or barefoot trimmer. In fact, in my experience, in *most* places I have lived it is always difficult and not infrequently impossible to find what I'd consider a really good farrier.

Or barefoot trimmer for that matter -- I have to tell you that honestly I have yet to see a good barefoot trimmer, i.e. one that does not appear to be doing the horse a disservice and making 'em chronically lame. I am quite certain that good ones do exist, you yourself may indeed even be a good one... but in the Northeast (at least in the various places i've lived), the bad or 'enh' ones considerably outnumber the good ones.

And I would like to point out that you cannot tell the good ones from the bad (as judged by the long-term effects on the horses) by what they say or the theories they spout. The barefoot trimmers of my acquaintance all say the sorts of things you're saying, and SOUND great... and they will proudly tell you how much better their clients' horses are doing now... but resultswise, the ones whose work I have seen make me go Eeeep. I'm not talking about how the feet look, I'm talking about how the horses seem to feel about it, soundness wise. And I mean over longer time scales.

Anyhow.

Unless you are suggesting that it is immoral for people to keep horses if they can't find a really good farrier -- or suggesting that if you have a good farrier and he retires or moves and you can't find as good a replacement you are obligated to get rid of your horses -- then, bluerose, you HAVE TO accept the reality that there are a LOT of horses out there, evidently including the original poster's, with imperfectly-maintained feet. Feet that are going to be damaged by standing in mud.

It's not the way the world *should* be, but it is the way the world IS. Many horse owners are just doing the best they can.

I (unfortunately) have yet to see a decent bare foot from a farrier... and if you use farrier and trimmer interchangeably I encourage you to make a distinction, because it's like calling a surgeon a pathologist... many farriers tend to trim up and slap a shoe on, or add pads and silicone, or wedges, or, or, or.... most trimmers try to heal the hoof- often from the damage done by corrective shoes.

Well you know what, I have had my horses mostly barefoot for years, as done by farriers not barefoot trimmers (see above for why). Certainly farriers vary in how well they serve the horse, and as I say, I find it difficult to find an acceptibly good one (and in some places impossible). But as I say, I find the exact same thing to be true of barefoot trimmers.

My horses are actually being done right now by a guy who, of all things, mainly shoes park type horses (morgans, 3 gaited ASBs, etc) and drafts. (I wouldn't have ever thought about him, except that he came highly recommended by my draft horse owning vet at a time when my previous good farrier had died much too young and his replacement was just long-term Not Getting It).

Now, to me that is *not* the kind of resume you would expect for someone to be good at trimming the foot for barefoot life

But you know what? He does quite a good job. He actually does understand that trimming a horse that will go barefoot is substantially different than trimming to prepare for shoeing, and he is real big on getting the foot right for the horse's natural movement and having it work as God or evolution intended. And the boys are doing quite well. He is not the only farrier I've had over the years that does things right, either.

While it is possible that every single horse *could* have really great feet if trimmed by the right person (no matter what the horse's history) -- I have considerable difficulty believing this to be true, but who knows -- you just have to recognize that we don't all live in that sort of perfect world.

Clearly the original poster *wants* to find someone good to do her horse's feet! Can she? Maybe. Maybe not. But in case of 'not', and certainly to address the horse's CURRENT state of being, I do not think it is helpful or responsible to give advice that's applicable only to horses whose feet are in good shape (esp. w/r/t mud) or to imply that the *only* thing she can do to help is to find a good trimmer.

Sitting down and shutting up,

Pat​

 

[bluerose]

OK- I HATE to jump in again- but this time in defense of Strasser trained trimmers.

Strasser herself gets a bad name because she gets the horses that, by all rights, should have been put down far before she got them- and she gets them sound...

As in any aspect of any profession, some people are better than others at what they do- don't automatically dismiss a Strasser-trained trimmer simply because he/she is Strasser-trained.

However, general rule of thumb: If the horse is (more) hoofsore after a routine trim, be wary. (An initial coming-out-of-shoes trim is a little different as the horse as a huge leap to make in hoof health, and abscesses also don't count.) However also consider the fact that if the trimmer is *too* conservative, the hoof won't heal... so sometimes, if nothing is happening, a more aggressive take may be required to 'jumpstart' the healing process.

And YES- hoof boots are absolutely faaaahbulous tools. Nikes for your horsey! Although other companies than EasyCare make them, but EC is really great to work with.


Edited to reply:

I have 3 morgans, 2 of which had the 5" feet with weighted shoes for years- so yes to me it is rather amazing that that same farrier can do a good basic trim! But- the number of farriers who are learning about 'this barefoot voodoo' is increasing- and that IS something that makes me happy.

I know many trimmers, a few who do OK jobs, a few who do utterly fantastic jobs. I think it's like anything else- you just get it, or you don't. The 'barefoot world' is becoming a lot more uniform- between books and clinics and BBs everything is sort of converging in one giant mass of knowledge... my favorite trimmer is part Strasser and part Ramey, in fact, and she does a fan*tastic* job.

And yes, lots of trimmers (and farriers!) would be somewhat insulted by being lumped into one category.

OK- shutting up unless asked to speak!

 

[TundraChick]

Don't have a horse or anything to add to the subject but I wanted to say BRAVO for the healthy friendly debate! These are the threads I like to see.

Stacy

 

[ajcress]

her hoof detaches feom the hoof wall half way down the hoof. This has been going on since I bought her. The Farrier I had just up and moved to further his education in this field. He had her sound and riding again. Last year he tried something new. Barefoot. So The pads and shoes came off and the sole was too soft. She got a few absess which grew out but her hoof has always detached as it had when I first got her. I cannot get a hold of him now. My vet is an old time vet and he insests I put her down. I canot give up on her because I know if I found some one to work on her as they would their own she could be sound again. As for the housing she is stalled with the exception of a sandy not grass turnout. she is getting a second cut timothy mix and safe choice. I I was told to try brewers yeast. It was said to be better than just biotin. It did show a big change in coat and growth of the hoof. I am going to call a few people tomorrow who are experienced in barefoot trimming and see if I can get someone out. She is a paint mare. 10 years old. The last person on the registration told be her history then I relayed it to my vet. She said the mare needed pads and shoes to be sound. This lady used her as a barrel horse. I appriciate all of the information. If anyone else thinks of anything please let me know. I will keep youall posted.

 

[bluerose]

Well, if the lamina are growing in properly at the top, but 'coming apart' partially down the wall, that's most likely a trim issue, plain and simple... hooves are flaring. Diet plays a part however because the stronger the wall, the harder it is for it to come apart.

Her soles were soft because of the shoes and pads; abscessing is normal with founder horses (they have to get rid of the dead material in the hoof somehow).

Safe Choice, IIRC, is around 20% NSC, which is simply too high for a possibly metabolically challenged horse. If she needs something for weight, consider soaked, un-molassed beet pulp or soaked, low NSC hay pellets, and add oil or a low NSC weight supplement. (NSC's are non-structural carbohydrates- sugars, starches, and fructans.) If she doesn't need anything for weight but just needs a handful of something, either of the above will work, or you can even simply feed her a handful of BOSS...

I think I may be able to hook you up with someone in WV or with someone who may know trimmers in the area, let me know if you would like me to try.

I heartily suggest you do some research and learn lots about what a proper, healthy hoof looks like so you can know what's right and what's not when you see it.

A lot of vets feel that founder cases are just too hard to deal with and can't be healed, etc... which is simply not true... it's really a matter of growing a whole new uncompromised hoof. That can take a while- but it is certainly not impossible...

I take it she is currently unsound. Have you tried her in boots and pads?

I would be happy to comment on pictures for you, but for expert advice (including far better trimmers than myself) I suggest joining the equinextion forum: http://equinextionforu.gossiping.net/index.php (it's currently down for renovations, so if you get a 'does not exist' message, never fear) and posting photos there. Everybody is super helpful and really only wants to see the horses get better.

Good luck!!

 

[mangled]

Another thank you for this thread.

I have been FIGHTING my husband because he wants a horse and thinks there's nothing to taking care of them. You know, the old, feed 'em, turn 'em out to pasture, horses live in the wild, blah, blah, blah.

I just sat here and read him this thread and he now agrees he doesn't know enough about horses. I had to explain what a farrier was.

*sigh*
Thank you guys for the healthy and lengthy debate.

You've saved a horse, too.
Em