Frizzled and White Ayam Cemani?

[Cinnamon11]

Another breed to add to my already long list!

 

[CiaBia]

So I personally have been watching your ebay auctions for at least 6 months now. I see the amount of traffic you get and the amount of income you are making. Congratulations on doing really well for yourself financially. I messaged you on ebay previously about your white chicks, but haven't purchased and I'll tell you why.

If you look at the photos you posted of the white Cemani, it does not meet breed standard. It has white toes, white toenails, and pink quicks. Those are all cull features. Any Cemani (regardless of type) with so much as a pink quick gets culled because that is the limit for breeder quality birds. Full exterior fibro including quicks. You never breed a bird with white toes, white toenails, and/or pink quicks. It is evidence that the fibromelanism is very obviously incomplete. Contrary to the rampant misinformation, white toes do NOT "turn black" over time and pink mouths do not "turn black" over time. They may grow and fade with the growth of the bird, but they are still culls carrying cull genetics into your subsequent generations. You are hurting your own quality by keeping and breeding pet quality birds like the Putih with bad toes. When you breed this mismarked bird with all of your others, you are keeping it's low quality lineage and white toes mixed with your high quality lineage fully exterior fibro. Your other black Cemanis look very good with black quicks and black toenails, only clear nail tips. You improve fibro by only breeding birds with the blackest skin and blackest nails. The goal is for no nail tips to be clear, period. The other factor you are missing here is the color of the inside of the mouth. The quality of a Cemani cannot be known until one has seen the inside of it's mouth. And while there are black mouth chicks with white toes, it isn't very common unless the breeder hasn't been doing their due culling. I got one once from a breeder who had spent hundreds on stock from a very respected and well-known breeder, yet doesn't cull so still has very low quality hatches overall.

Having all of these Cemani varieties in the same flock is a major mistake because they will never breed true. Someone who buys your eggs thinking they will get high quality birds would be sadly disappointed to find out your breeding stock is mismarked to the naked, knowledgeable eye and is a mix of high and low quality instead of all being high. In my opinion, if you want to respectably breed 3 varieties of Cemani and advertise them the way you do, you need to start with high quality fibro stock of each variety and isolate the desirable traits instead of selling a mixed bag for novelty. You need 3 separate flocks. Props to you on the high income, but you are hurting the value of your offspring overall when you aren't appropriately culling. Hopefully this makes sense

@Zodiac Acres
I found some really interesting reading material breaking down the Fm gene (fibromelanosis) and how it's affected by dermal melanin inhibitors.

Fibromelanosis in Domestic Chickens

To summarize as best I can, there are several feather colors that actually suppress fibro expression in poultry. Recessive white does not allow the fibro gene to express completely, and therefore causes it to manifest in a way that makes it appear as though its a bird with poor fibro integrity. Genetically the birds still has the same 'dark' skin as its dark feathered parents, but the fibro pigmentation is dulled visually by factors directly related to recessive white genes. Recessive white only affects fibro expression in its homozygous form, therefore a black Cemani carrying one copy of the recessive white gene (visually black bird split to white) would have no loss in pigmentation. This means that a recessive white bird could still be bred to quality black Cemani and not lower the integrity of the fibro in my lines. I do agree that black Cemani with white toes, nails, and skin should be culled from breeding stock, but I do not believe this accurately applies to white Ayam Cemani for the reasons given above. I have bred white Cemani back to black and have experienced no loss in fibro expression. If accurate documentation is kept of the lineage of all white birds produced, you would be able to accurately predict the quality of the chicks to be expected in crossing back to black. This may sound like unnecessary work, but this would be essential if I want to continue diversifying and strengthening my lines. And I have LOVED working on these varieties so far!

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I'm going to order more eggs if you have them next spring. Do you have any possible idea when you'll start getting more frizzled whites to pop up or have you not started this part yet?

 

[CiaBia]

I'm going to order more eggs if you have them next spring. Do you have any possible idea when you'll start getting more frizzled whites to pop up or have you not started this part yet?

I should have them all separated by next spring so you'll be able to select between the frizzled or white, or a combination of both!

Once my white frizzled rooster is old enough I will be putting him in with my whites, I should get roughly 50% white frizzles hatching from those eggs. It'll probably be a couple more months until he is ready though!

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I should have them all separated by next spring so you'll be able to select between the frizzled or white, or a combination of both!

Once my white frizzled rooster is old enough I will be putting him in with my whites, I should get roughly 50% white frizzles hatching from those eggs. It'll probably be a couple more months until he is ready though!

Awesome. So if I ordered late march/early April would that be to early?

 

[CiaBia]

Awesome. So if I ordered late march/early April would that be to early?

That should be more than enough time! If anything just shoot me a message before you order, and I'll be able to let you know what my current hatches are looking like

 

[JacinLarkwell]

That should be more than enough time! If anything just shoot me a message before you order, and I'll be able to let you know what my current hatches are looking like

Cool, I definately will. Obviously won't get too far with my pair so I wanna boost up numbers and try again for a white

 

[Jennc-123]

How would I find you on eBay? I'm interested

 

[JacinLarkwell]

How would I find you on eBay? I'm interested

If you search Ayam cemani hatching eggs, they (were) the only one selling possible white or frizzled hatching eggs

 

[CiaBia]

How would I find you on eBay? I'm interested

I'm not sure if sending my eBay info is against site rules? Just in case I'll send you a PM. I don't have any listed right now but I can send you a PayPal Invoice for the next available shipping dates! Should be around 1-2 weeks.