Gah -- what's left that I'm not doing?!

[Uzuri]

I'm having a heck of a time with thin-shelled eggs this spring -- and this morning we had a shelless (who knows how many more of those we've had; they're so easy for them to eat).

Chris09 threw me some very interesting information on shell formation/nutrient requirements, and I read it through, but there still seems to be something I'm not doing.

Here's the situation:
-8 hens; 5 are almost 2 years old, the others are about a year. It seems the be the older hens giving me trouble, though I wouldn't swear to that in court. Naturally everyone joins in eating an egg if one is broken badly enough for the insides to be leaking out.
-1 hen is known to peck holes in her eggs, which are thin-shelled. She doesn't eat them; she just punctures them. Usually she doesn't break the membrane. She is currently isolated, and so long as she's isolated it seems we're not getting any holes in any eggs but hers. (I think even NOT isolated we weren't getting holes in any eggs but hers, but I wouldn't bet money on it).
-Hens are getting 17% protein layer crumble (Kalmbach). We're limited in feed brands in our area. The other option is Purina, but it's still 17% (and also wouldn't allow me to support my locally-owned feedstore; I'd have to buy from TSC. Not the end of the world, but I would say a brand switch would be the last possible resort.).
-Feed is top-dressed with Calf-manna; I'm not real scientific, but let's say that I add about enough to get me to 19% protein consistently.
-Feed is top-dressed with calcium. They do eat it; I'm not seeing it spilled. The isolated hen is eating hers as well.
-Starting this week I've been dissolving a D-3 in their water. They got it every day last week as a system shock and it was my plan to go to once a week. They're likely only getting a tiny bit of this -- one pill in 2 gallons of water. I could up the dose, but I want to be careful since there's no real recommendation for D-3 supps for chickens. We've had practically no sunlight here for weeks, so I could believe they're a little low on this.
-Edit: Oh yeah, we've got no Rooster, and we haven't had a stress "event". That doesn't necessarily preclude stress, but if it's there, it's not an obvious stress.

So what else can I do? The only things left on Chris' list are Magnesium (which the info claims is next to impossible to be low on due to the type of stuff that goes into feed) and Phosphorus (which also seems to be very high in grains, and therefore an unlikely culprit).

 

[KimberlyJ]

Disclaimer--I'm no scientist. But this popped into my head. You're providing all that calcium, but is it able to be absorbed? If I remeber my food science correctly, humans need Vitamin C in order to absorb iron efficently. Is there something that works with calcium like that? Again, just throwing it out there for you. I hate it when I can't figure something out!

 

[mulewagon]

Do you have oyster shell for them? Also, I buy my feed from a locally-owned hardware store - he can order special feeds for me. I'm getting the 22% protein right now, to help them grow their feathers back.

If they can't free-range, you could also pull up clumps of grass and weeds for them. They eat the roots and bugs in the dirt - lots of natural nutrition!

 

[Uzuri]

Quote:
You need D for calcium absorption, not C. And phosphorus helps with Magnesium absorption (which I only know because it's something I personally have trouble with. But yeah, I think it's an absorption thing rather than a lack of calcium thing. Or possibly an aging hen thing, in which case there may not be anything I can do.

Yep, mulewagon, what I'm topdressing with is oyster shell. Still got a nice big bag of it (that stuff lasts forever, even with as much as I'm throwing at them!). I should ask about special ordering feed. I've been pulling up grass for them lately (and my hole-pecking problem child is isolated in a tractor, so SHE'S getting some serious grass privileges.), though our grass only really started getting tall enough to do that this week. I've also been letting my girls out into their extended run every 3rd day -- I've got a fenced and covered section of run that I let grass grow in and only let them out on when it's recovered from the last time. I wish I had two more fenced sections like that; I could have them on grass every day. But any renovations of that sort will have to wait until next year; all my extra cash needs to go into fixing up the people house this year.

 

[Celtic Chick]

Kimberly pointed out that you need Vitamin C in order to absorb iron efficently, but wasn't sure what was needed (vit. D) to help absorb calcium.

I had the same problems in Jan. through March with my girls. I was leaning toward Egg Drop Syndrome, but it may have been due to the lack of adequate sunlight this past winter. I have seen an awful lot of people on this site reporting the exact same problem lately. Here are some items to consider in your investigation. Hope it helps.

Egg Drop Syndrome: Incubation period 3 to 5 days Duration 4 to 10 weeks
Egg drop syndrome is an infectious disease of laying hens caused by a hemagglutinating adenovirus and characterized by thin shelled and shell less eggs in otherwise healthy birds. The natural hosts for EDS virus are ducks and geese, but has become a problem with chickens of all ages . The disease is most severe in broiler breeders and brown egg layer strains, less so in white egg breeds. EDS was first introduced into chickens through contaminated vaccine. Transmission occurs by any of the conventional methods of disease spread. Infected birds excrete the virus in the feces. Vertical transmission is considered the primary mode of spread. Clinical signs are loss of color in pigmented eggs, followed by thin shelled or shell less eggs. Egg production drops by 40 percent. Virus isolation should be done in duck or goose embryos or cell cultures of duck or goose origin. Harvested allantoic fluid or cell culture should be checked for hemagglutinating activity in chicken RBC . There is no successful treatment . The endemic form in breeders can be controlled by washing and sanitizing incubators and egg trays before reuse. In layers, molting will restore egg production. Prevention is through the control of vertical transmission. Endemic EDS is associated with the egg-packing stations, as contaminated egg trays can be a major factor in spread. Virus is also present in fecal material, so hygienic procedures are required.

List of egg problems:
http://www.blpbooks.co.uk/articles/egg_problems/egg_problems.php

Thin-shelled eggs and shell-less eggs link:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publicati … lless-eggs

Link to protein. Scroll 3/4 of the way down to #4:
http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html

 

[Chick CJ]

Questions: is it just one hen laying the soft shelled eggs? When you say "top dressing" do you mean sprinkling the oyster shell on top of the food?

If so, you might just try placing it in a pie tin and keeping it full. I realize a lot may go to waste, but I think you'd be surprised at how much one hen will eat of it if she is in need of calcium. You might just not be giving her enough. I have an EE who goes in and out of needing oyster shell. When she is in need of it I see her over at the tin many times in a day.

But if it is just one hen, it may just be a problem she has developed with the absorption in which case, it will be an experiment to figure out how to help her!

good luck and keep us posted on your results!!
Cathryn

 

[Uzuri]

Oops, obviously I can't read. Sorry about that Kimberly. Missed that you were talking about iron + C, not calcium + C.

I'll have to read more about EDS. That's kind of scary and really annoying. Hope it's not that.

simpsoncj: I can actually answer this one intelligently. I went out this morning and found 4 eggs -- one from the Wyandotte who's with my problem child in isolation, one from my other mature Wyandotte, and two that were either from my young Wyandottes or possibly from my young Buff. I brought them all in and broke them. I now know that eggs from both of the hens in isolation are exceptionally thin -- thinner even than most store bought eggs. The two eggs from my young hens (whether they be 'dottes or the Buff), were thicker, but not as thick as I'd really like them to be. The other 2yo Wyandotte's egg was somewhere in between the really this ones and the ones layed by the younger group. Meanwhile, a couple days ago I did the same experiment with my Wellie eggs (always easily distinguished), and they were rock hard. My Wellies are part of the 2yo group. It's good that they were so good to me this morning, since now I have quite a bit more data than I had before. Basically 2 of my five 2yos are the worst, my young ones and the other 2yo 'dotte are iffy, and if my Wellies lay thicker shells I'm going to need a chainsaw to open them. Hopefully I can at least get the 4 iffy ones back on track; I have contacts with someone with proper processing equipment and can cull the two worst of them if it comes to that, but I'd sure hate to have to cull 3/4 of the flock!

I'll have to see if I can come up with something to provide oystershell separately in. Right now I dump a heaping scoop (probably about a cup and a half; 1/12th of the feeder) into the feed and mix it around a bit each time I fill the feeder, so they get a hefty amount relative to the amount of feed.

Hmm, quite a puzzle. I think I need to buy myself a big magnifying glass and one of those deerstalker hats.

 

[Uzuri]

Don't like to reply immediately after one of my own replies, BUT just thought of something else.

Is it possible that it's a salinity problem? We do have a water softener. But if that's the case, why did I not have issues last year?

 

[moetrout]

I would free feed the oyster shell. Mine have a dog food dish under and outside overhang. When I let them they usually visit the dish. I would keep it readily available some place that it will stay dry. Also is it possible for you to let them free range at all? I am on my second uear with my hens and their eggs are really hard to crack! The membranes are also really tough so I usually have to run a knife into them to break though. Chickens are pretty good at knowing what they need so instead of you mixing the the oyster shell into the food, put it out separately and let them take what they need. Good luck!

 

[ChooksChick]

In most feed stores you can get a liquid calcium supplement that is readily absorbable. I keep it on hand for the possibility of egg-binding. It's usually in the goat section.

If you add a capful to a gallon of water, it will boost their calcium intake in a consistent, readily available form. If you continue to have the problem after a week, I would change the feed, because a phosphorus/magnesium imbalance will make the calcium level irrelevant. It's worth a shot, and if you end up changing your feed and find a benefit, it would be good to share the results with your local feed store so they might be able to address it in their formula.