Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[SourRoses]

I've actually inquired with a friend about whether he'd have interest in raising a small flock of these GH birds and he's planning to get back to me tonight when we'll discuss, but I'm curious if any of you who are breeding these birds would be interested in sending a few hackles my way because I'm curious about their attributes. I'd be happy to pay shipping or even a small additional fee depending on what you had to send, but I'm not interested in paying full-price for the feathers because honestly, I can get feathers at full-price any number of places and they'd come from birds that I KNOW to be of high quality for dry flies (Metz, Keough, Collins, Whiting, etc. etc.), not to mention that I truly do have a lifetime supply of dry fly hackles already. The truth is that I've got an obsession and I really love everything about these hackles, the birds and the history of how they were bred.

It's great to hear from an experienced fly tier! I really hope you'll keep contributing here, many of us who enjoy keeping these birds don't actually tie flies, so there is often a bit of a knowledge gap (speaking mostly for myself).
I'd be interested in having feathers analyzed, provided they could be singles, as I rather like my keeper birds with their heads on, lol.

Whereabouts in the south are you? I'm in Florida and have started birds available. Dennis is in Pennsylvania. There is also a FB group started by Dennis if you use that platform.

 

[dheltzel]

I'm thrilled to find this forum. I believe I may have belonged to this or a similar forum some time ago when I was still raising my own birds, but haven't visited in eons and I just registered an account here.

I'm not terribly interested in raising any birds now only because it's physically impossible for me to do so because my wife and I are recent snowbirds and now have a place down south in addition to our Pennsylvania farm, but there was a time not that long ago that I would have dived into the genetic hackle chicken breeding with both feet.

My interest now is mostly because I'm a reasonably serious fly tyer (I don't sell, but tie for myself, brothers and friends), but also because these ARE beautiful birds. The gentleman whose capes and saddles I prefer is Charlie Collins up in Pine City, NY and his birds come directly from Harry Darbee, Doc Fried, Dick Bitner and some others and he shared his birds with Andy Minor and others, back in the day. I know that Dr. Tom Whiting gets all of the press and the attention (deservedly so), but Charlie Collins' birds and hackles are superior in some ways to Tom Whiting's birds (obviously not in all ways). The other noteworthy thing about Mr. Collins' birds is that he's developed the very best colors in the industry. He has all of the regular colors like black, cream, brown, ginger, etc., but he also has a LOT of different dun colors and many of his birds have a beautiful barring that makes their feathers not only beautiful, but it makes them come alive in/on the water.

Aside from the fact that Mr. Collins' birds/hackles have all the traits that a serious tyer wants (soft, supple stems that won't roll or twist, short, stiff, straight barbules, excellent colors, good length and consistency, etc.), the other thing I liked about him was that he never got too big, continued to run a one-man operation and as such, his capes and saddles were always extremely affordable. To this day, the tyers who still tie Catskill style dry flies prefer Charlie's hackle to anyone else's. Sadly, he's had some family health issues and he was forced to give his breeding stock to another gentleman who intends to keep the line alive (he gave it to this person and didn't ask a penny, which I find extremely noteworthy).

I have no idea if Mr. Collins' birds are/were fairly closely genetically related to some of these birds (that I understand came from the Alsford Hackle Farm), but it would surprise me if they didn't have a lot of common ancestry.

I've actually inquired with a friend about whether he'd have interest in raising a small flock of these GH birds and he's planning to get back to me tonight when we'll discuss, but I'm curious if any of you who are breeding these birds would be interested in sending a few hackles my way because I'm curious about their attributes. I'd be happy to pay shipping or even a small additional fee depending on what you had to send, but I'm not interested in paying full-price for the feathers because honestly, I can get feathers at full-price any number of places and they'd come from birds that I KNOW to be of high quality for dry flies (Metz, Keough, Collins, Whiting, etc. etc.), not to mention that I truly do have a lifetime supply of dry fly hackles already. The truth is that I've got an obsession and I really love everything about these hackles, the birds and the history of how they were bred.

I am in PA and have a small flock of hackle birds I keep for pleasure (they are the prettiest roosters on my farm - and they have competition). I regularly hatch a few chicks to make available to people that want to keep them as pets, ornaments, or fly tying. My line came from Joel Alsdorf (Alsdorf Genetics - no longer in business) another PA breeder.

PM me and we can figure out if we are close enough for pickup or I can ship chicks and feathers.

 

[GANGGREEN]

My winter/spring home is in upstate South Carolina. Even if I weren't seasonal there, I live in an HOA and the birds would not be possible. My home in northern PA is much different. I have raised some chickens there and have room for as many as I'd ever want, but because I'm seasonal there too, it's probably not possible or at least not wise for me to keep them there unless I had an arrangement with someone very local and very responsible to care for them in my absence, but that seems like too much to ask. I have mentioned it to a buddy who has raised lots of birds (chickens and other) and I'm hopeful that he'll wish to take on a small flock purely out of curiosity.

As for the hackles, I fully understand that not everyone keeps their birds for harvest and I'd be thrilled with a few of the small to medium-sized neck feathers (fly tyers might call them size 14 or 16) and a few of the smaller saddle feathers (smaller in width, not length). If anyone has a few feathers that they'd ship, I'll gladly cover shipping and you can PM me for my address.

dheltzel, I actually sent you an email today inquiring.....

 

[GANGGREEN]

By the way, in the event that anyone might be interested, one of the young guys who had a commercial hackle operation going is apparently getting out of it. I think he's probably keeping many/most of his birds, but if someone was interested in purchasing them for commercial purposes, he might be interested. I saw photos in this thread of a bird owned by Jordan Kerby and I think that's who owns Kerby Hackle, that's apparently closing as a business as we speak.

I really don't know the ancestry/breeding of any of his birds and I've never used his hackle for fly tying, but I've seen some photos and they look pretty good.

 

[QSCFT6]

Next, mt. Non-molting is a QUANTITATIVE trait and is called an autosomal ( body, remember not sex-linked trait) recessive. It's a weird recessive, though, it is not straightforward like most genes. It has a couple of very strong, unusual effects that are pretty important.
1. You will see blood feathers that stay for a Very Long Time( I discussed this earlier) and that is called " perpetual growth" (think Onadagori fowl for the most extreme example).
2.The second thing that is abnormal is that molting is delayed.
Brian Reeder suspects these two effects may not even be caused by the same gene, but this is the best information we have to date, so I am sharing it from his book and his extensive research. It appears much of this can be traced back genetically to the Green Jungle Fowl, and there is a PhD paper, I believe that was going to be a thesis written in the late 1990's but I don't know that it was ever argued and published. David Rogers may have more data on this.
One of the strange things with non-molting genes in these birds is that it does not follow the 1:2:1 Mendelian patterns most people are familiar with, but instead, remember I said Brian Reeder favors the " quantitative hypothesis" ? it appears that every time you select for the non-molting trait to get longer feathering, that the non-molting trait increases incrementally in your poultry stock. Thus, the more you select and breed individuals for this, the more the trait is expressed in the offspring, and more tahn you would normally expect.
Dr. Whiting mentions this in one of his many youtube videos. He stated he now has that long-feathering trait showing up on the sides and the wings of his birds, and displays an example of a bird expressing this condition.
Brian Reeder is of the opinion that over-selection for the non-molting trait to get long feathers may, in some cases, if carried too far, result in a neurological condition that presents as seizures in certain birds and its a pleitropic type of effect.
. IF non-molting occurs without perpetual growth, those blood feathers dry up, but they stay in place and won't be molted for 18 months or even longer. In " The Introduction to the Form and Feathering of Domestic Fowl" Reeder matches this to the same pattern that the Green Jungle Fowl demonstrates.
I will expound on this concept in a later post, because I feel it is a lot to take in at one sitting.
3. Sd! This stands for that all-time important saddle hackle!
Next time, if there is interest, I will discuss this saddle hackle gene, Sd.
I think I discussed it a bit before, but, it too, is not the easiest concept. The saddle-lengthening factor ( Sd) occurs separately from Tail Growth ( Tg) but in almost an identical manner.
I hope some of this was helpful? Take care!

Thanks a lot.. interesting..

 

[Egg Snatcher]

This has nothing to do with breeding hackle fowl. Would anyone know what cases hackle feathers to twist? Is it genetic or dietary?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

This has nothing to do with breeding hackle fowl. Would anyone know what cases hackle feathers to twist? Is it genetic or dietary? View attachment 3697446

It popped up in my phoenix and has been hereditary so far

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

My oriental gamefowl have that also.

 

[Egg Snatcher]

It popped up in my phoenix and has been hereditary so far

Do you think a bird would get disqualified from a show if they had the twisted feathers?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Do you think a bird would get disqualified from a show if they had the twisted feathers?

I wouldn't know. Probably