genetic

[AugeredIn]

Are you sure of that ????

No matings of India Blue and White will EVER produce Pied.
http://www.hopkinslivestock.com/genetics.htm

India Blue X India White ( split Pied ) will produce india Blue Pied !

IB Pied X White = 50% IB Pied; 50% White .... some of those White are White split Pied !

I'm wrong ?
To be White you need 2 genes White ... but is there birds with 2 genes White and 1 gene Pied ?
The question is ....does the White split Pied exist ?

A friend of mine get spalding Pied with this cross:
Pure green peahen X IB White cristatus coming from IB Pied.

There is no white split pied possible.

Your friend either has a pure green peahen with a spontaneous or naturally occurring mutation or it is not pure green.

Unfortunately there has been perpetuated the idea that split pied birds always have white throats and/or white flights. This is not true. Split pied birds mostly do NOT have any white on them. Deerman tried to clarify this issue many times and it never caught on.

 

[DylansMom]

BS genes are part of a different part of the genetic code and have nothing to do with white or pied. pied and white birds can be barred wing or black shoulder. Of course on a white bird you would not know what flavor it was as it is completely masked. Rosas reference to normal is related to a lack of pied or white markers.

White IS a PATTERN not a color.

Okay, so white, pied, barred wing, BS, and silver pied are the 5 patterns, but white and pied are located at a different spot than BS and barred wing, correct? And where is Silver pied located? Or is that one of the things we still are not certain of when it comes to silver?

 

[AugeredIn]

Actually there are generally considered to be four patterns: black shoulder, pied, white eye and silver pied. That does not tell the entire story, however. There are numerous combinations and silver pied is not necessarily separate from white eye. The interaction of pied, white, white eye and silver pied is not totally defined.

Pattern Type #1:
A bird can be black shoulder or barred wing.

Pattern Type #2:
A bird can be normal, split pied, split white, dark pied (two pied genes), white (two white genes) or "pied" (one white gene and one pied gene).

Pattern Type #3
A bird can be normal, split white eye (one white eye gene) or white eye (two white eye genes).

Pattern Type #4
A bird can be normal or silver pied, however, all silver pied birds are white eyes but not all white eyes are silver pied. All silver pied birds are pied.

 

[DylansMom]

Actually there are generally considered to be four patterns: black shoulder, pied, white eye and silver pied. That does not tell the entire story, however. There are numerous combinations and silver pied is not necessarily separate from white eye. The interaction of pied, white, white eye and silver pied is not totally defined.

Pattern Type #1:
A bird can be black shoulder or barred wing.

Pattern Type #2:
A bird can be normal, split pied, split white, dark pied (two pied genes), white (two white genes) or "pied" (one white gene and one pied gene).

Pattern Type #3
A bird can be normal, split white eye (one white eye gene) or white eye (two white eye genes).

Pattern Type #4
A bird can be normal or silver pied, however, all silver pied birds are white eyes but not all white eyes are silver pied. All silver pied birds are pied.

Back to the drawing board for me!

 

[Rosa moschata]

So, where does BS fit into this? Normal would be barred wing? or normal would be No White? I thought of normal as barred wing: a pattern, others being BS, Pied, Silver Pied, are you saying white is a pattern, or that white and pied are separate from barred wing and BS?

"Normal" is the non-mutant (or "wild-type") version of a gene of which one or more mutant versions exist(s). Is "Normal" then barred-wing? Yes, with respect to the BS mutation. But "Normal" would also refer to the "non-" version of any other mutation. Thus there's "Opal", which is a mutated form of a particular gene. The original "non-Opal" version would be "Normal." Confusion may arise when discussing a cross with two different mutations visual in the parent birds. For example, crossing an IB BS with an Opal Barred Wing. Neither parent would be called "Normal" because each displays a mutation. But aside from the particular mutations, we can assume that all the other genes are of the "Normal" version. So let's look at the IB BS parent. It has the BS version of that particular gene, but also has the "Normal" version of the gene of which Opal is a mutation -- in other words, yes, it's BS, but it's also "not-Opal". At the same time, the Opal Barred Wing parent has the Opal version of that gene, but the "Normal" version of the gene of which BS is a mutation -- in other words, yes, it's Opal, but it's also "not-BS." Offspring from such a cross will have a "Normal" and a mutant version of each of these two genes, but because "Normal" is dominant, then "Normal" will show.

With respect to Pied and White, there are three known versions of this particular gene -- the two just mentioned, as well as "Normal." White and Pied are two different mutated versions of the same gene, i.e. they are alleles. But so far as is known, they are the only mutant alleles in peafowl. With all the other mutations, each is a "different version" of an independent gene, and we call the "non-mutation" version "Normal."

Does that make sense?

 

[Rosa moschata]

Okay, so white, pied, barred wing, BS, and silver pied are the 5 patterns, but white and pied are located at a different spot than BS and barred wing, correct? And where is Silver pied located? Or is that one of the things we still are not certain of when it comes to silver?

White, Pied, White-Eye and BS are individual mutations. Barred Wing is the "Normal" version of the gene of which BS is a mutation. Silver Pied is the name given to peafowl with a combination of mutations together, including one copy each of White and Pied, plus White-Eye, and possibly some other mutation (or version of White-Eye) which gives the "Silver Dust" to the saddle. You will confuse yourself if you think of Silver Pied the same way you think of the others, because Silver Pied does not result from just one mutation -- it's a suite of mutations which must be present together for the bird to fit the "Silver Pied" description. Think of it like "Oaten", which was a name formerly used for birds which were Cameo BS. There is no single "Oaten gene".

 

[Hannah15]

Not that I think this is probably the case for this pair, but is it possible for a bird to have a mutated third allele for color? I'm comparing this to gender mutations such as XXY and XXX. I don't see why it couldn't happen, though I suppose that most people would just assume that something else was in the genetics, rather than assume the bird had a mutated third allele and it would therefore go unnoticed. I just wondered if that was a possibility with color genetics as well.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Not that I think this is probably the case for this pair, but is it possible for a bird to have a mutated third allele for color? I'm comparing this to gender mutations such as XXY and XXX. I don't see why it couldn't happen, though I suppose that most people would just assume that something else was in the genetics, rather than assume the bird had a mutated third allele and it would therefore go unnoticed. I just wondered if that was a possibility with color genetics as well.

You are correct in your thought that a chromosomal abnormality resulting in a third copy of the chromosome carrying the White/Pied mutation could allow for a White bird to be split to Pied. However, having an extra (or missing) chromosome (aneuploidy) tends to bring other negative health issues. I have read of a few examples of completely triploid (3 copies of every chromosome) birds, but they were also invariably sterile.

In humans, having an extra sex chromosome isn't nearly as detrimental health-wise as having an extra autosome. Why? Because when there are two Xs, one (chosen at random during very early development several divisions after conception) is mostly silenced. When there are three, the same mechanism simply mostly silences two. The Y does little beyond initiating male development, so having a double-dose of that is just a mild bump in the road. But the autosomes are another story -- an extra copy can be lethal, or result in moderate to severe impairment in the case of the smaller autosomes with fewer genes (think Down Syndrome).

 

[Dany12]

So with this mating :
Pure green peahen X IB White cristatus coming from IB Pied = IB White split Pied.
All the peachick will be spalding 50%.
And you can get : Blue Spalding 50% + Blue Spalding 50%split White + Blue Spalding 50% split Pied + Blue Pied Spalding 50% .
But NO White Spalding 50% !

In fact it will the same result with this kind of mating :
IB peahen X IB White cristatus coming from IB Pied = IB White split Pied.
50% IB + 25% IB split Pied and White + 25% IB Pied.

 

[DylansMom]

"Normal" is the non-mutant (or "wild-type") version of a gene of which one or more mutant versions exist(s). Is "Normal" then barred-wing? Yes, with respect to the BS mutation. But "Normal" would also refer to the "non-" version of any other mutation. Thus there's "Opal", which is a mutated form of a particular gene. The original "non-Opal" version would be "Normal." Confusion may arise when discussing a cross with two different mutations visual in the parent birds. For example, crossing an IB BS with an Opal Barred Wing. Neither parent would be called "Normal" because each displays a mutation. But aside from the particular mutations, we can assume that all the other genes are of the "Normal" version. So let's look at the IB BS parent. It has the BS version of that particular gene, but also has the "Normal" version of the gene of which Opal is a mutation -- in other words, yes, it's BS, but it's also "not-Opal". At the same time, the Opal Barred Wing parent has the Opal version of that gene, but the "Normal" version of the gene of which BS is a mutation -- in other words, yes, it's Opal, but it's also "not-BS." Offspring from such a cross will have a "Normal" and a mutant version of each of these two genes, but because "Normal" is dominant, then "Normal" will show.

With respect to Pied and White, there are three known versions of this particular gene -- the two just mentioned, as well as "Normal." White and Pied are two different mutated versions of the same gene, i.e. they are alleles. But so far as is known, they are the only mutant alleles in peafowl. With all the other mutations, each is a "different version" of an independent gene, and we call the "non-mutation" version "Normal."

Does that make sense?

Okay, I think it is starting to make sense. My mistake was in thinking that all the pattern mutations were located in the same place and that since white can mask a pattern like BS it must be different and located at a different spot than all the others, when it is actually at a different spot than BS but at the same spot as Pied, correct? So in an instance where a visually normal looking bird is crossed with a white bird out of pieds, no pieds can result, and if they do the visually normal looking parent must be the one carrying the pied gene, not the white parent? I'm going to saty far away from Silver at this point, but I am curious about WE am I correct in assuming that it is located at a different spot as well?