Genetics Calculator Chat Thread

[BlackHackle]

Totally fine to have your own bias of course, but remember, this is the US, you live in good ol' Canada. Things could be different. And yes, they can be poorly set up. Had problems ordering from Strombergs. Sandhill Preservation doesn't always hatch enough chicks so you may have to wait a year. Plus can be disorganized.
Many hatcheries mislabel the birds as Americana when they are Easter Eggers, Cackle actually has Ameraucanas.
My Dominiques were good, and the only flaw in the silkies is some were a little smaller than others, but none were too big.

I don't have a bias, I'm just going by the Standard of Perfection. I was only trying to make it known that a person will never win Champion of Show in a full blown APA sanctioned show using Cackle Hatchery birds. I mean, it only makes sense.

That's the whole reason why I don't buy anything from hatcheries. I'm looking to climb the standings in the APA point system to become a master exhibitor. I'm not looking to win best of breed just cause I had one poorly bird in a breed no one else had at the show.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I don't have a bias, I'm just going by the Standard of Perfection.

Nonsense, we all have bias, in everything we do.

The SOP does not mitigate bias, it's just a set of guide lines that help maximize conformity of the breed, but there is still variation in birds that all meet the SOP, even at a show. Your interpretation of the SOP would speak to your particular bias.

Judges of shows are often more familiar with this breed over that breed... that's a bias.

Judges of shows often favor a trait that is more common in their region ... that's a bias.

Judges from a farm background vs Judges with a show background ...even though they all go by the SOP, they still have bias.

Breeders that select for 'heritage" traits vs breeders that select for traits that perform better at shows, select their stock with their bias built into the flock, even though they are both keeping with the SOP.

Common chicken people like myself that don't pay attention to the SOP, but don't want a "same old" hen, that's a bias.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

That's the whole reason why I don't buy anything from hatcheries. I'm looking to climb the standings in the APA point system to become a master exhibitor.

This makes all the sense in the world to me, I'd do the same if I had the same goals.

 

[BlackHackle]

Nonsense, we all have bias, in everything we do.

The SOP does not mitigate bias, it's just a set of guide lines that help maximize conformity of the breed, but there is still variation in birds that all meet the SOP, even at a show. Your interpretation of the SOP would speak to your particular bias.

Judges of shows are often more familiar with this breed over that breed... that's a bias.

Judges of shows often favor a trait that is more common in their region ... that's a bias.

Judges from a farm background vs Judges with a show background ...even though they all go by the SOP, they still have bias.

Breeders that select for 'heritage" traits vs breeders that select for traits that preform better at shows, select their stock with their bias built into the flock, even though they are both keeping with the SOP.

Common chicken people like myself that don't pay attention to the SOP, but don't want a "same old" hen, that's a bias.

Oh yea, I have a bias...I was more of saying what view I was speaking from. I was saying that following the base outline in the SOP we should all be able to know what birds are great quality and all agree with each other on that matter. If we use a bias when judging them we aren't really judging them by the SOP

 

[BlackHackle]

This makes all the sense in the world to me, I'd do the same if I had the same goals.

Yea, ain't that the truth

 

[OhZark Biddies]

If we use a bias when judging them we aren't really judging them by the SOP

I know people think that way... but the term "judging" should tip us off that it is subjective. Livestock judging is not an empirical endeavor, it can't be, it never will be.

I said earlier that the SOP is just a set of guide lines that help maximize conformity of the breed.

Put another way, the SOP can not eliminate variation.

The best you can do is to take steps to maximize the conformation of your flock, such as buying from breeders that have qualities you want, and abide by practices similar to your own

And you want to make it a point not to buy from breeders that have qualities in their flocks you do not want, and who do not follow selection practices that are in line with your goals, for you those breeders would include hatcheries.

But the key to these conversations is to state our goals when discussing the merit of hatcheries, or breeder A vs breeder B, etc. Otherwise you interpret what I say with your bias, and I yours with my own... and neither of us makes any sense to the other.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I'm a big fan of dual purpose. I used to be drawn to the unsual, but now I'm drawn to birds who look like they lay three hundred eggs a year, and have meat to boot. Also d'Anvers lol.

I know what you're saying, when you use the term. But as an aside, that term "dual purpose" always stands out to me.

The thing that I see exhibition breeders do, is they select so hard for "visual" traits that the SOP defines, that within a few generations they get away from the original breed's purpose, or purposes. I wonder how many breeds are really still dual purpose?

A prime example of this is in the cattle world with the shorthorn breed. In the last 25-30 years, that breed has been completely ruined in the US as far as production merit goes. The only really good stock of shorthorns that I'm aware of are in Canada. In the US they're all "club" cattle, which are so heavily focused on shows that they might as well not even be the same breed any longer.

I think a lot of this happens in the chicken world as well with both exhibition breeders and hatchery breeders.

 

[BlackHackle]

I know people think that way... but the term "judging" should tip us off that it is subjective. Livestock judging is not an empirical endeavor, it can't be, it never will be.

I said earlier that the SOP is just a set of guide lines that help maximize conformity of the breed.

Put another way, the SOP can not eliminate variation.

The best you can do is to take steps to maximize the conformation of your flock, such as buying from breeders that have qualities you want, and abide by practices similar to your own

And you want to make it a point not to buy from breeders that have qualities in their flocks you do not want, and who do not follow selection practices that are in line with your goals, for you those breeders would include hatcheries.

But the key to these conversations is to state our goals when discussing the merit of hatcheries, or breeder A vs breeder B, etc. Otherwise you interpret what I say with your bias, and I yours with my own... and neither of us makes any sense to the other.

This is some really great info, thanks for the clarification. So sorry about the blowing of steam...I was just a bit ticked off from the years I wasted raising hatchery birds that the company lied to me through showing good pictures of what the actual breed looks like, not their own.

I tend to ride trains off tracks...and I'm not quite sure how we got to this topic

The only really good stock of shorthorns that I'm aware of are in Canada

Yup, we used to breed the full blown utility shorthorns on our property. I live between two of the best shorthorn breeders in Canada. Their cows are perfect examples of good meaty shorthorns and are not bred for showing. You gotta like those breeders sometimes (or all the time)

 

[LilJoe]

A snippet of their breeding farms info:
https://www.cacklehatchery.com/breeding-farms/

...Some of our lines are bred for production type while others are bred to meet the American Standard of Perfection. A lot of our rare breeds and bantams are bred from exhibition/show stock...

I honestly don't like how they buy birds from exhibitors/breeders. They get stock that people have worked YEARS on to perfect and breed them. But what they are doing without realizing it is messing the birds up. I'm sure they have no idea what the SOP for the Brahma is, so they are breeding birds with major defects together. They probably one cull sick or injured birds, aswell. When people buy juvies or chicks they think they are getting the best of the best even though the hatchery has destroyed the line. (Not talking about the "risks" in buying "show quality" chicks)


There was guy from Cackle judging a county fair this year.He was supposed to judge by the APA SOP, but he didn't. All hr did was look at the birds from outside the cage, take them out, look at their butts, looks at their feet, then put them back.
Made me so mad

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I honestly don't like ...

Can i guess that you breed exhibition stock then? And that you just don't support any hatcheries, because their selection practices do not align with your own?

If that's the case I see no issue with that at all.

Likewise, can you see how someone like myself who has no interest in exhibition stock can be quite happy with the birds that Cackle or some other hatchery supplies?And understand that this is because they are representative of the breed, even if they deviate from SOP?

Can you accept that what you view as inferior, is not inferior to me? And that it is only inferior when judged against the SOP, but works quite well when judged simply as a chicken? I mostly rate them on their pooping prowess... and I assure you they excel at that!

But your position also seems to be that hatcheries should cull harder, etc. So as to produce show quality birds. I'm not sure I can agree with this, or even agree to disagree on this, as it doesn't seem to reason out.

• Wouldn't the hatchery need to cull extremely hard to keep the conformity of the flock close to the SOP?
• And wouldn't we expect a lot of the genetic variance to disappear, and then over time the strains would be less healthy?
  
• And for laced wyandottes, etc. wouldn't the hatchery also need to keep a male strain and female strain, to get show quality of each gender?

Now if a hatchery culled that hard, and kept separate male and female lines for a lot of the breeds, and started to have a lot health issues due to tightly bred lines, wouldn't we expect the overhead to be really high and profit really low?

And so then we have to ask: why are they in business?

So I think we can start to see some problems with this idea that hatcheries should follow the same practices as the exhibition breeders.

As for the fella judging the show, from what I understand, there are judges in all livestock show worlds that people are unhappy with. The thing I hear more often than not, is that the judge isn't familiar enough with the standard for that particular breed, and judges breed A as if it were breed B...

But if this guy is a lousy judge he's a lousy judge ... regardless of his affiliation with a hatchery, or his lack of familiarity with breed A... or a list of other reasons... and I would guess there is governing body in place to deal with that?

So if we step back and look at it objectively, can we say that generally speaking exhibition breeders tend to demonstrate a bias against hatcheries?