Goat Wormer Recommendations - SafeGuard No Longer Effective!

[cmjust0]

Quote:
You're right..my bad.

My overall point was to switch formulations as best as possible between clears and whites...not necessarily to specifically follow the progression I laid out. It was just an example...and a bad one, apparently!

Good catch.

 

[j.luetkemeyer]

I use DE and have never had a worm problem. I also provide a mineral mix that I get at Countryside Naturals and it contains Dried Kelp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Magnesium Oxide, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Diatomaceous Earth, Sulfur, Garlic, Dehydrated Apple Cider Vinegar, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast. I have never and will never use a chemical product.

 

[cmjust0]

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What about selenium? If you're in a deficient area, regular shots of Bo-Se are pretty much required. Some folks do it once a year...some twice...and I've even heard of folks doing it every 2mo with good success. Your vet should be able to offer advice on that, if you don't already have Bo-Se as part of your regimine. I only mention it because of the 'elf shoe' comment...sometimes that's a result of the animal being rocked back too much on its pasterns, which is a classic symptom of Se deficiency.

FWIW, I had one doe that was pretty copper deficient.. She just didn't really partake of the mineral we set out, and it turned out that the mineral we were using at the time wasn't that great anyway....and it didn't help that our management of their mineral SUCKED.. Copper bolusing helped her a bit in the copper department, but not a whole lot.. Again, copper oxide has extremely low bioavailability and, frankly...well, it just hasn't struck me as a very good way to get copper levels up, as weird as that probably sounds.

If I were you, I'd take a good hard look at your over mineral situation. What you want is a loose mineral with a lot of "sulfates" or "chelates" in the ingredient list. If there are a lot of "oxides," it's probably not that great of a mineral mix. Something else that helps A LOT when it comes to encouraging mineral intake is to set out small amounts at a time, and refresh it often.

So many people go buy a bag of cheap mineral from TSC or wherever, pour quite a bit of it out in a container, and call it good. That's what we did at first because, hey, everybody knows a goat "takes what it needs when it needs it," right? Well, no, they won't. Not necessarily, anyway, and especially not if the mineral has become soiled or soggy or dusty or even just got old in the container.

Our mineral issues prompted us to switch to a custom blended goat mineral with chelates and sulfates of copper and other minerals, and instead of dumping out a bunch, we put out maybe 1/2lb at a time for the foundation herd of 10 goats.. Sometimes when you put out new mineral, a few of the goats will come over and take, and take, and take, like it's just what they've been waiting for. Other times, everyone totally ignores you and it sits untouched for a day or two then POOF -- you find the container licked clean. I can tell you for a fact, though, that if we let them go more than a day or two with no mineral and then set it out, they fight each other to get at it.

I bought a 50lb sack on 9/8/09..just looked at the date on the receipt. We've had to toss out 10lbs at the absolute most on account of it becoming occasionally soiled, or having to sanitize and refilling containers, etc.. We have maybe 7-8lbs left at this point. So, 10 goats have eaten probably a bit over 500oz of mineral in 90 days, which averages to about 5.5oz/day. Across 10 goats, that's just about 1/2oz per day -- which is just about exactly the rate at which most goat minerals are designed to be consumed.

I shudder to think about how long a bag of mineral used to last, back when we were using crappy mineral and setting out large quantities, free choice...totally mismanaging it.

And, FWIW, we're still not where we need to be in terms of mineral sufficiency in the herd. These problems don't happen overnight, and unfortunately, they don't get fixed overnight....not even with Bo-Se and a copper bolus.

 

[cmjust0]

j.luetkemeyer :

I use DE and have never had a worm problem.

What's your definition of "a worm problem?"​

 

[nop169]

cmjusto
Just wanted to say you are correct about mineral requirements for goats - a custom goat blend will show amazing results - although remember that most feed blends for goats do contain a minimum amount of minerals also. I supplement with Sweetlix goat minerals - this brand seems to work best for me - I feed it freechoice in a PVC homemade feeder located in 2 places in the goat shed. Also note to insure that the mineral you buy is relatively fresh - minerals begin to lose their strength after about 6 mos - whether the bag is open or not. I have also had good results using the Sweetlix mineral blocks - although my goats prefer the loose version.
Also on the deworming issue - a friend of mine raises Soay Sheep & Fainting Goats. She currently has over 300 animals so hand deworming each one was too difficult this year due to her health issues (THANK GOODNESS she is better now) so she used Safeguard Cattle Deworming Blocks... one block per 20 to 25 goats/sheep & then dewormed any individual who showed signs of being parasitic (a total of 12 animals - mostly the old "girls" who are kept away from the blocks by younger stronger animals). The Safeguard blocks worked fantastic for her with no ODs . Within 2 weeks all but the 12 were slick & gaining weight. This will not help in rotating dewormers if you have been using Safeguard but it was a safe alternative that was less labor intensive for her.
Also note that selenium/vit e mixes may be purchased in oral dosage syringes as well as custom mineral blends if someone wants to avoid the injectable type.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

My overall point was to switch formulations as best as possible between clears and whites...not necessarily to specifically follow the progression I laid out. It was just an example...and a bad one, apparently!

What you said was 100% correct.

It's just that many dont realize Safeguard and Panacur are different name brands of the same drug.
At one time you had to have a prescription for Panacur.

My neighbor used to drive 25 miles to a Vet and get single 5 ML doses of Panacur to treat his dog for tapeworms at $10 each. (it takes 3, given on consecutive days)

I took him to the Southern States store just 4 miles from here and showed him a bottle of Safeguard "goat " wormer at $15 for 125 ML's.​

 

[dragonchick]

My goats have a loose, gray cattle mineral that contains 2 forms of copper and selenium. They do eat it when I put it out, usually every other day. I also top dress their pellets so I know they get it. Selenium usually shows as a muscular problem which I have not seen. I have Bo-SE and give it to babies when they're born. If the adults show signs they will get a shot.

We are in a high iron area and this seems to affect how they absorb the mineral.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
What you said was 100% correct.

It's just that many dont realize Safeguard and Panacur are different name brands of the same drug.
At one time you had to have a prescription for Panacur.

Very true.. I should have been more careful, especially because that problem doesn't just exist in the white wormers.

I called a place looking for 100ml bottles of Dectomax and they asked what it was. I said it was an injectable wormer, like Ivomec, but with doramectin instead of ivermectin. The guy said they had it. I asked for a price and it was suspiciously low.. Like, really low. At first I was stoked, but then reality set in and I asked a few more questions...turns out, he was quoting me on Noromectin, which is just a generic ivermectin 1% injectable. Not at all what I was looking for, of course, but close enough in name to cause confusion.

Point being...do as Bear Foot says and read the ingredients on your de-wormers! Switching from Ivomec to Noromectin or from Safe Guard to Panacur will do you no good whatsoever.

BFF (lol) :

My neighbor used to drive 25 miles to a Vet and get single 5 ML doses of Panacur to treat his dog for tapeworms at $10 each. (it takes 3, given on consecutive days)

I took him to the Southern States store just 4 miles from here and showed him a bottle of Safeguard "goat " wormer at $15 for 125 ML's.

Oh, totally! That's the best trick in the book!

I told my BIL about doing that recently, and he didn't trust me...so he spent big $$$ at the vet on dog-labelled fenbendazole. Oh well..

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:

The fact that it's gray, to me, signals a high level of quality right off the bat. If they know better than to include iron oxide (ferrous sulfate instead, I bet), then they know what they're doing.

Ever do a side-by-side between it and a really good goat mineral like sweetlix or manna pro's goat mineral, just to compare the values? Might be interesting to see what's up, what's down, and what's the same between the two..

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In kids, that's true...white muscle disease. In adults, though, I look at the 'ankles.' If they're rocked back considerably, it could well be a Selenium/Vit. E deficiency.

The hell of it is that lots of mineral deficiencies manifest the same way. I've seen seemingly-copper-deficient does regain a good bit of hair pigmentation after a shot of Bo-Se.

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There's such an incredible interplay with all sorts of vitamins and minerals.. I ran across a 'map' of sorts, once, showing mineral interactions.. All the minerals were arranged in a circle with lines drawn between them to represent the interdependencies.

It sorta resembled a ball of yarn.

I'll try to find it.


Now...something else to keep in mind is that heavy parasite loads affect the pH of the gut. The pH of the gut affects the aborption of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. Likewise, deficiencies increase the tendency for heavy parasite loads...a vicious cycle. Worms affect absorption, malabsorption leads to deficiencies, deficiencies lead to more parasites, which lead to worse absorption issues, round and round she goes. Might be what's going on here...parasite load may be affecting copper absorption, or perhaps the stress of the parasite load is causing the does to use copper hand to mouth..

Obviously...get rid of those worms first. Copper bolusing should at least help with that, especially if you're dealing with barberpoles..

Oh, hey...(I'm a novelist, apparently)...have you thought about trying Red Cell? Barberpolls are, of course, bad for causing anemia and Red Cell is good to combat it. Common dosages I've seen on adults are 15ml/day for about a week. Red Cell also contains copper, selenium, and several other good minerals.. And if you run across things online that say not to give goats Red Cell because it contains ruminant parts, the info's old...it's been reformulated and no longer has ruminant parts in it, so no worries about scrapie or anything like that.

Just a (few) thought(s).

 

[the4heathernsmom]

You got a lot of good info but I thought I would add what works for me in wet east texas where wormloads stay high. I have used cydectin on a two month routine schedule as well as pumpkins (supposed to be natural dewormer) here and there and my worm loads have been kept under control. I also use a dairy dust for external parasites as I see them. I can tell you what hasn't worked ivermectin, panacur, safeguard, DE, levamiosol sp? tried these and did not work in my wet area.