Going weak and dieing.. why?

[ClaireDL]

My first sick bird was 4 month old bantam rooster (overly sweet and loving too), just started to lay down and show a very light lameness...Within 2 weeks he became very very weak...and then could not stand on his feet, just because too weak...His legs were still moving....After trying to save him for 5 weeks, we ended up euthanizing him and send him for necropsy. The lab found some sweelling of some nerves...which could likely be marek's disease. None of my other bird or pullet got sick. According to the vet, this disease is really more common than thought.

 

[jak2002003]

Thanks everyone....

She is still with us. Going to try her on some antibiotic pills I got from the vet now. She does not seem to be suffering too much.. in that she is still bright eyed and alert.

She is pooping more.. and they are slightly less watery but no way near normal.

All my other birds.. and the fancy pigeons seem 100 percent healthy.

I am sure she got her illness from the rooster that died. She and her brother used to hang around with that rooster all the time and were like a little group. And she is showing the exact same symptoms as the rooster had.

Her brother is in perfect health. I think this sick pullet was the daughter of the rooster (which was a new addition several months ago.. he was pure white and so is she).. so perhaps she and her dad did not have resistance to a disease that is in my flock I don't know about. Her brother is the son of the top rooster as he has the exact same colour as him. Or I might be overthinking it!

Will give it a couple more days.. then I will call it a day if no improvement.

 

[casportpony]

What pills did the vet give you?

-Kathy

 

[zeppley]

Kathy,

I just recently had to research Toltrazuril/Baycox. I'm sure you know this, but others might not.

The dose is 7 mg Toltrazuril/kg body weight. There are 2 versions - one can be given by mouth, and the other can be given in drinking water.

The "oral suspension" is meant to be given by mouth. It is slightly acidic - more than tomatoes, less than orange juice. It is palatable (slightly sweet) but will NOT dissolve in water. The oral suspensions for cattle, piglets, dogs, cats are this type and are either 2.5% or 5% toltrazuril. I think the versions sold at the following links are this type:
http://horseprerace.com/products/toltrazuril-baycox/
http://www.glamgouldians.com/product-baycox.php.

A 4.5 lb (2 kg) hen would need 7mg/kg * 2 kg = 14 mg Toltrazuril.
If using 5% Toltrazuril (50 mg/ml), the hen needs 14 mg/ 50 mg/ml = 0.28 ml.
A 2.5% solution is 25 mg/ml and a 5% solution is 50 mg/ml.

The "oral solution" (confusing, eh?), is meant to be dispensed in the drinking water. This version has been made very alkaline (between Borax and ammonia) so that it will dissolve in water. It comes in 2.5% or 10% concentrations. Baycox

solution 2.5% for Poultry, and CEVAZURIL® (2.5%) are this type. I think the versions sold at the following links are this type:
http://pigeon-supplies-plus.myshopify.com/products/endocox-2-5-100ml
http://ladygouldianfinch.com/product_baycox.php

Again the desired dose is 7 mg/kg body weight. Bayer calculates that for many ages, 25 ml Toltrazuril/L drinking water (3.2 fluid oz./gal) given over 2 consecutive days will provide this dose. Alternatively, the medicated water can be provided for only 8 hrs a day over 2 consecutive days using a concentration of 75 ml/L (9.6 fluid oz/gal). Most instructions say to make it the medicated water fresh daily, however, the specs says dilutions are stable for at least 48 hr. The known failures of Toltrazuril were when birds didn't drink enough to get the full dose.

If you want to give this version by beak (PO = per oral), dilute it with Coke or similar so it won't burn the bird's throat.

Both treatments - by mouth or by drinking water, can be repeated once or twice after 5 - 7 days.

 

[cree57i]

Kathy,

I just recently had to research Toltrazuril/Baycox. I'm sure you know this, but others might not.

The dose is 7 mg Toltrazuril/kg body weight. There are 2 versions - one can be given by mouth, and the other can be given in drinking water.

The "oral suspension" is meant to be given by mouth. It is slightly acidic - more than tomatoes, less than orange juice. It is palatable (slightly sweet) but will NOT dissolve in water. The oral suspensions for cattle, piglets, dogs, cats are this type and are either 2.5% or 5% toltrazuril. I think the versions sold at the following links are this type:
http://horseprerace.com/products/toltrazuril-baycox/
http://www.glamgouldians.com/product-baycox.php.

A 4.5 lb (2 kg) hen would need 7mg/kg * 2 kg = 14 mg Toltrazuril.
If using 5% Toltrazuril (50 mg/ml), the hen needs 14 mg/ 50 mg/ml = 0.28 ml.
A 2.5% solution is 25 mg/ml and a 5% solution is 50 mg/ml.

The "oral solution" (confusing, eh?), is meant to be dispensed in the drinking water. This version has been made very alkaline (between Borax and ammonia) so that it will dissolve in water. It comes in 2.5% or 10% concentrations. Baycox

solution 2.5% for Poultry, and CEVAZURIL® (2.5%) are this type. I think the versions sold at the following links are this type:
http://pigeon-supplies-plus.myshopify.com/products/endocox-2-5-100ml
http://ladygouldianfinch.com/product_baycox.php

Again the desired dose is 7 mg/kg body weight. Bayer calculates that for many ages, 25 ml Toltrazuril/L drinking water (3.2 fluid oz./gal) given over 2 consecutive days will provide this dose. Alternatively, the medicated water can be provided for only 8 hrs a day over 2 consecutive days using a concentration of 75 ml/L (9.6 fluid oz/gal). Most instructions say to make it the medicated water fresh daily, however, the specs says dilutions are stable for at least 48 hr. The known failures of Toltrazuril were when birds didn't drink enough to get the full dose.

If you want to give this version by beak (PO = per oral), dilute it with Coke or similar so it won't burn the bird's throat.

Both treatments - by mouth or by drinking water, can be repeated once or twice after 5 - 7 days.

I bought the oral suspension thinking it was the oral solution. Any suggestions on how to get it down about 25, 3 week old chicks? Great information.

 

[zeppley]

I bought the oral suspension thinking it was the oral solution. Any suggestions on how to get it down about 25, 3 week old chicks? Great information.

For 25 chicks I'd hold each one and put the dose down their throat using a needleless tuberculin syringe.

If that seems too daunting, do an experiment.
Merck Veterinary Manual says the dose for drinking water is 25 ppm (parts per million).
Make the dilution and see if it will stay in solution for a day.
Add the toltrazuril to the water very slowly and mix WELL. It might work.

I'll give calculations tomorrow when I'm not so sleepy.

 

[cree57i]

For 25 chicks I'd hold each one and put the dose down their throat using a needleless tuberculin syringe.
I've done that to my flock of 25 several times this year
[I can tell you my technique to do this single-handed if you want]

If that seems too daunting, do an experiment.
Merck Veterinary Manual says the dose for drinking water is 25 ppm (parts per million).
Make the dilution and see if it will stay in solution for a day.
Add the toltrazuril to the water very slowly and mix WELL. It might work.

For the 2.5% suspension (25 mg/ml) add 1 ml to a liter of water.
For the 5% suspension (50 mg/ml) add 0.5 ml to 1 liter of water.

NOTE - if you don't want to use so much of your Toltrazuril, cut the recipe in half or in quarters.

If you can't measure in metric, here are ROUGH equivalents - 1 ml is a bit less than 1/4 tsp. 1 liter is a bit more than a quart.

Let me know if it works. Good luck!

Thank you so much. How in the world do you give that 1 handed? When I have to give vitamins to new hatch chicks, I end up with it everywhere.

 

[zeppley]

Oops, I cross posted myself. Too sleepy. Don't use my dosages until I can recalculate when I'm fresh.

Yep, when I dose little chicks it can go flying - that's why I put vitamins in their water. Older birds are easier as there is more to hang on to.

I grab the bird and tuck it into my left armpit (kind of like a football hold). I use my arm to hold it close and pin it's wings. The feet are dangling. I let them calm down, then wriggle my left hand around until I can reach under their beak. I pinch their chin skin and pull down until they open their beak.

With my right hand I work the syringe into their open beak and slide it down the side of their throat until it is past the opening to the lungs. Expect them to shake their head a few times, just hold the syringe tight so it doesn't go flying. Once I have the syringe way back in their throat, then I depress the plunger with my thumb. If you let them calm down between tries and are persistent you'll get it.

 

[cree57i]

Oops, I cross posted myself. Too sleepy. Don't use my dosages until I can recalculate when I'm fresh.

Yep, when I dose little chicks it can go flying - that's why I put vitamins in their water. Older birds are easier as there is more to hang on to.

I grab the bird and tuck it into my left armpit (kind of like a football hold). I use my arm to hold it close and pin it's wings. The feet are dangling. I let them calm down, then wriggle my left hand around until I can reach under their beak. I pinch their chin skin and pull down until they open their beak.

With my right hand I work the syringe into their open beak and slide it down the side of their throat until it is past the opening to the lungs. Expect them to shake their head a few times, just hold the syringe tight so it doesn't go flying. Once I have the syringe way back in their throat, then I depress the plunger with my thumb. If you let them calm down between tries and are persistent you'll get it.

Thank you so much for the help. I haven't seen anymore blood, it could have been stomach lining cells...I hope. Fed them kefir and medicated feed all day yesterday. I have had so many coccidia losses over the years I am an obsessive poop monitor now. So far this year it has been unusually dry here and guess what, no coccidia. The rains have started now though and that has me on high alert. These guys are on wire outside, but their transitioning to grass is ready to begin. Fingers crossed. This is the first year I have Baycox. Hoping it will work better than Corid, when the inevitable happens. I will watch for your recalculations. I am poor at math and don't trust my own.

 

[zeppley]

Thank you so much for the help. I haven't seen anymore blood, it could have been stomach lining cells...I hope. Fed them kefir and medicated feed all day yesterday. I have had so many coccidia losses over the years I am an obsessive poop monitor now. So far this year it has been unusually dry here and guess what, no coccidia. The rains have started now though and that has me on high alert. These guys are on wire outside, but their transitioning to grass is ready to begin. Fingers crossed. This is the first year I have Baycox. Hoping it will work better than Corid, when the inevitable happens. I will watch for your recalculations. I am poor at math and don't trust my own.

Glad no bloody poop today. x2 on the coccidiosis! I bring my glasses and a flashlight for poop inspection every morning.

I haven't had loses in a few months now - knock wood. I attribute that to the toltrazuril, probiotics (I'm using Probios in their water), switching to deep litter (explain to me how having layers of dirty bedding helps, but it seems to - less dust maybe? reduces the flies, too - go figure), and moving the most susceptible off to their own grass pen. The weird thing is that fecal smears still showed coccidia when I last finished medicating them but they have been getting better since then. I did a necropsy on one bird that a possum killed. Her gut looked healthy. She had really long cecal pouches with enlarged ends - probably an after effect of the infection.

I'd think the grass would be OK if it hasn't had birds on in before/recently. There will likely be oocysts there but probably in low enough numbers for the chicks to fight it. I would take action before I saw bloody poop - if any birds look a little off or you see suspicious cecal poops (running or foamy). If you have a microscope, you can do a fecal smear to confirm. Kathy (CAsportpony) weighs hers on a schedule and intervenes if she sees slower growth or weight loss (at least for her peas). For me to weigh mine I'd have to put them in a sack.

Hope Ragnar is OK - he's a prince.