Going "whole hog"

[Mrs. K]

Quality is a funny thing in animals. I really do not know anything about quality, standard to breed in chickens. But I do know cattle, and have been actively breeding them all my life. It is hard to pinpoint, but there is a difference.

Animals can be improved, but it takes dedicated work, careful records, and no attachment. People have been working on this for centuries, several references in the bible, (book of Joel, I think?)
If you want to help breed standards, start with the very best you can afford for hens, and slightly more than you can afford for a rooster. THEN cull.

mrs.K

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Well, partly that -- but they also seem to outcross, or even just arbitrarily label (e.g. the very suspicious coincidence of how some large hatcheries switched seamlessly from selling "Columbian Rocks " to selling "Delawares" as popularity shifted, and the birds they are selling look the same...

(in reality the two birds are fairly distinct); and the way that a number of rare breeds seem to have had leghorn or other production type things bred into them, judging from how they look.

Quote:
Sure, people do that fairly frequently I think, at the smaller shows anyhow. All you have to do is order a *lot* of chicks, then show the one or two that look the best. But looking/showing appropriate is a lot different than REPRODUCING those traits reliably!

Quote:
Of course you can't prove anything in particular cases -- but it is pretty clear that some individuals ARE breeding stock that DOES trace back pretty purely to fifty or a hundred years ago. The genes in those breeding populations -- and I don't mean necessarily the genes for VISIBLE traits only, but ALL the genes (including ability to deal with disease, different conditions, etc) -- are not the same gene pool as hatchery birds have.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own take on what 'breed conservation' means, but those who DO it generally feel that it is not just a matter of reconstructing something that fits the standard, it is a matter of making sure that as much as possible of the breadth and depth of the original genetic material of the old populations survives into the future.

If you DO consider hatchery birds to be "breed conservation" then I don't see any pressing need to worry about it, as the hatcheries certainly do a great job of cranking out large numbers and if anyone can select back to legit representatives of the breed in a decade or two, then you don't need to actually DO it, as anyone could easily do it at anytime if they cared. That is not preservation to me, though, since your efforts would not actually do anything that isn't happening already or couldn't be done by anyone else at any time. To me, breed preservation is making sure that things are not lost that, once lost, can never be regained.

JMHO,

Pat

 

[MrChicken207]

I do understand your points quite well. Would there be any breeds that you would feel are more safe than others to acquire from a hatchery (Dark Cornish, Faverolle maybe)? Do you think some hatcheries are more responsible than others in at least trying to keep breeds more distinct (no out-crossing, or arbitrarily labeling)? I'm trying to plan my breeding with some responsibility, but not having to spend more than I can afford. I'd love to be able to start with a breeding flock of 40 or 50 birds, but if it's too expensive, I'll probably have to start with less, unless I can get something halfway decent from a hatchery. But if, as you say a lot of them turn out to be mutts, I'm defeating my purposes (not to mention filling every freezer in the family with meat).

Some of the breeds on my not so short list are:

Dark Cornish
Salmon Faverolle
NH Reds
Delawares
Welsummers
Dorkings
RI Red
RI White
Plymouth Rock
Orpington
Wyandotte
Sussex
Chantecler
Buckeye

BC Marans (I have only been able to find this at Meyer's, and only in limits of 10, private breeders would be the more available option maybe)

Americanas (not to propagate a breed, I just like the egg color. I've had these before)

Perhaps a bantam breed or two.

I do plan on narrowing this list down to one or 2 breeds for conservation, and one or 2 others for general use. Just not sure which ones. It's not easy, because they all have their good qualities.


My grandparents raised RI Reds and Quail d'Anvers back in the 40's through the 60's. None of the Reds descendants are around anymore, but the bantams were sold to another farmer. He free ranges them with Buff Orps. He'd part with some of them, but not at a low cost, (he tries to be self sustaining, but it's never been easy for him).

I plan on using Balfour system, or a modification of it, to raise the birds. Way too many wild animals that would find the birds a good meal to let them free range. I figure a good fence and a nice rifle will take care of the predators.

 

[Mrs. K]

A very good fence, and a gun only when they are caught in the fence! Ugh! Predators can be a huge problem.

 

[pontoosuc]

I'd start by researching the breed I think is the most interesting for Heritage breeds.
Check out albc below. Once you decide which way to go you can find a source for eggs or birds.


http://www.albc-usa.org/heritagechicken/index.html

 

[MrChicken207]

we've got all sorts of predators around here. From black bear and coyote, on down to weasels and rats. Can't do all too much to completely protect against the smaller ones, but the only one of the larger ones that could mangle a fence are the bear, and state law protects us if we have to shoot one of them (or any other animal except birds of prey) for "disturbing" livestock, pets, or family members.

 

[MrChicken207]

I've been checking albc, and their canadian and british counterparts as well as the apa site for quite some time now. It isn't helping me. All it seems to end up doing is to add to my list....

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Ok, if you want to do this then what I would suggest for maximal affordability, maximal "bang for your buck" (effectiveness), and minimal chance of getting in over your head and having things go badly wrong:

1) find out what rare-and-needing-conservatin breeds you can realistically easily GET eggs/chicks OF, preferably from someone within driving distance of your house. This alone will probably narrow your list a whole big lot

2) pick one of them. Yes, one. Raising 100 or more chicks *to adulthood* per year is quite the task, don't multiply it by two or three till you've done it several years times ONE.

3) get as many of their hatching eggs (only if you have experience hatching eggs!) or chicks or other stock as you can afford to. Even if it is just a trio, that is *something* to start with. If you can get a couple dozen, that is excellent but not essential.

4) grow them up. If you were able to get a couple dozen, cull them down to the best 25%. If you only got a few, cull any that have MAJOR defects (both 'as chickens in general' and 'as this breed') but keep all the rest.

5)Next year you will go on a hatching spree and try to crank out as many chicks from them as you possibly can. Cull down to the best 10-20% or so, and keep those for additional breeding stock.

6) Do this each year til you are up to "full scale production" so to speak; at that point you will be hatching and growing-up 100+ chicks per year, and keeping only the best 10-20% for next year. This will provide you with PLENTY of meat for the freezer (rather expensive meat, but you're producing it ANYhow in your breeding program so you may as well at least get some table use out of it!) and most of the eggs you are likely to want.

7) You can also, as funds become available, buy additional stock from the same person you got your original animals from, or from someone who THEIR stock is from that original source. If you need to.

In the first couple years (if you were not able to afford/obtain large numbers of initial seed stock), you will not have much meat for the table and likely not enough eggs. For those first couple few years, you may wish to raise something else as well, either a crop or two of meat birds and a few production-type laying hens, or a crop of straight-run chicks from something like Rocks or Wyandottes or other reasonably dual-purpose birds. It is also possible, depending on exactly which heritage breed you have and how many eggs your family requires (especially in winter), that you may wish to always keep a couple (like, just a couple) heavy-laying production birds around to fill in the gaps during the slack season. But really you will be producing so many eggs and so much cull meat that there is not a lot of reason to have a whole separate *population* of a second breed.

YOu should sit down and calculate a) the actual real cost of housing/fencing to keep several dozen breeders PLUS 100+ up-to-adulthood-sized birds, and b) the feed costs for raising 100+ birds to adulthood.

BTW note that breeds that mature quickly (e.g. Campines) can be culled intelligently much sooner (thus, cheaper) than those that require a long time to mature into their final characteristics (e.g. Jersey Giants, long-tail breeds, Chanteclers, etc)

JMHO, good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[MrChicken207]

Quote:
The driving distance part will definitely narrow my list. Probably too much. Most (if not all) people near here have mixed breeds of chickens, or use sex links and cornish cross. If I wanted to create a new breed, that might be an option.

I'm pretty sure there might be some preservation breeders within reasonable driving distance outside of the state, but that would mean only one option...Canada. I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford all of the tests and paperwork required for bringing them into the country. In addition, the exchange rate isn't friendly to spending the money in Canada right now.

Otherwise, i'd be driving several hours (like 3, or 4, or 5). The New Hampshire border is "only" 300 miles away.

I am willing to get a couple of trios or quads from someone through the mail (even though the shipping would probably be more than the birds themselves). But not until I have facilities for them. As you can read in my signature below, that won't be for at least a year or 2. Hopefully the post office is still cooperative with shipping birds then...


If I got 2 or 3 breeding groups from someone, would it be a good idea to separate them, or could I keep them together in the same pen? I know that there'd be some adjustments with the pecking order if I kept them together, and the more dominant rooster would have the most genetics passed on, but then again, if th rooster from group A is closer to the standard and the hens from group B are, I could always switch off the mating, providing that they aren't from the same clutch. I have bought eggs and hatched them before, but my success rate was far from 100%. I'm pretty sure that it was either me or the incubator at the time (I was young and made the incubator myself. 25% of the birds hatched, considering that, it's not too bad, but not great).

At this time, I'm probably going to end up buying the land, build the "barn" and wire/plumb it, but still live at my current house "in town." I'd go and visit the birds at the very least 2 times per day. that;s why I was thinking of a hundred birds, to help provide body heat in the winter, even if they would be separated into several pens. An option to that effect would be to buy a property with an existing horse barn and then just cut pop holes and put up fencing.

Just some more of my thoughts on it.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
By "within driving distance" I meant like within a long day's drive

There are PLENTY of poultry breeders in new england. Or hatching eggs (once you get proficient at hatching) can be mailed, preferably from not too far away.

If I got 2 or 3 breeding groups from someone, would it be a good idea to separate them, or could I keep them together in the same pen?

There are different philosophies. The most common approach would probably be to keep them separate, so that you have some clue of parentage and can therefore use SOME form of intelligent breeding program so's not to get accidentally more inbred than desired.

However another very good option to consider, with limited funds, would be to build or buy an incubator, do several practice runs with "whatever" fertile eggs, sell the chicks, and then once you are feeling proficient, buy hatching eggs.

At this time, I'm probably going to end up buying the land, build the "barn" and wire/plumb it, but still live at my current house "in town." I'd go and visit the birds at the very least 2 times per day. that;s why I was thinking of a hundred birds, to help provide body heat in the winter

Me, I'd be real real leery of keeping birds -- especially large numbers -- on a property where you don't live. Lot more potential for things to go wrong and start losing birds, maybe bunches o' birds. What about big snow events where you *can't* visit the birds for a while?

The problem with the whole "enough birds to heat the coop" idea is that it tends to involve crowding and underventilating. Both of which can really boomerang on you, with cannibalism and frostbite.

Sometimes it is better to wait til you can do something *properly*, with maximum chance of success and minimum chance of big problems...

If you can keep a few chickens at home now, you can still be looking around for a good breeder of a well-maintained old-line heritage breed that you like, who might be willing to sell you a trio or such. As much for fun, and to make sure you really LIKE the breed, as anything, but it'd also give you the ability to get rolling faster once you do move to rural property. (Also you can start practicing your incubating skills, since even if you want to select for broodiness, it is still a whole lot easier to crank out lots of chicks to cull down from if you can reliably hatch things in a 'bator)

Good luck, have fun,

Pat​