Going "whole hog"

[MrChicken207]

That's just my problem. Where I'm at it's zoned as strictly residential, and the powers that be view chickens as livestock, not pets. Even if they changed their minds, they wouldn't allow roosters, so there goes the breeding idea.

The reason for my idea of an 'away from home farm" is simply that my wife is attached to the house (it was her great aunt's). I never planned on over crowding the birds, I was thinking of inside space of at least 6 sq ft per bird. (an 8x8 pen would hold no more than 10 birds, less if they wre larger).

As far a "al long day's drive" goes, that still wouldn't get me out of the state of Maine. I would plan on doing this as a day trip (down and back in the same day). I live in far Northern Maine. If you look at a map, I'm just south of that notch in the top of the state that's on the Canadian border near the provinces of New Brunswick and Quebec. If I drive straight east, I'll be at the New Brunswick border within 8 or so miles. I know there are options there, but the USDA and US Customs changed the rules after the whole bird flu/swine flu foolishness....(I don't think that those strains would come from Canada, I think they'd come from the south).

 

[roverjohn]

If the OP does what everyone seems to be suggesting wouldn't he just be doing the exact same thing that the breeder he buys his stock from is already doing and with essentially the same birds? What would be the point of that? If you really wanted to protect 'heritage genetics' you'd want to spread them into as many birds as possible because you could then get them back via selective breeding, if need be, in the event of some future apocalypse. All today's breeders are doing is breeding birds to fit some arbitrary 'standard' anyway. His original idea seems like a recipe for being stuck with birds as I don't see rural Mennonites being willing to pay any extra to end up with heritage breeds that may not be as productive as the Golden Comets they can buy by the hundreds dirt cheap at TSC but who knows until he tries it.

 

[MrChicken207]

right, but if the Amish/Mennonnites wanted to breed som of their own birds, after a few generations those birds would be inbred and would need an infusion of new genetics. i don't believe that they all buy comets/stars or other crosses. I'm pretty sure some go with buff orps or barred rocks, but even those might need new blood once in a while. This was my point of this statement. Granted there are alot less Amish/Mennonites here than in most parts of the continent who have those cultures, but you can also transfer that thought to "back to basics" types of people, who don't want to buy from TSC or the local feed store or through the mail for various reasons. They might just want a dozen or so healthy birds for their little backyard flock. My thought in that part would be to provide the service. Essentially, a hatchery in and of itself, but my idea would be to keep birds who can raise their own next generation.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
No. I am not sure how to explain this short of just suggesting a quick refresher course in genetics

If you really wanted to protect 'heritage genetics' you'd want to spread them into as many birds as possible

Yes precisely, that is why it is valuable to have more people breeding a particular line of birds. The more birds there are, the less bottleneck-type and drift-type loss of genetic diversity there is.

All today's breeders are doing is breeding birds to fit some arbitrary 'standard' anyway.

That's not really true. Some breeders are tending older lines, while keeping them from wandering away from the standard (as will happen in chickens if you do not have ongoing strong selection). That is pretty different from taking <whatever> gene pool and trying to push it *towards* an arbitrary standard.

His original idea seems like a recipe for being stuck with birds as I don't see rural Mennonites being willing to pay any extra to end up with heritage breeds that may not be as productive as the Golden Comets they can buy by the hundreds dirt cheap at TSC but who knows until he tries it.
Quote:

Um, no, sorry MrChicken, but it doesn't generally work that way. I'm with roverjohn on this one. Amish or Mennonites who want to breed their own birds already ARE, and more suited for their personal purposes than your 'rare heritage birds' would be; and they do NOT have any trouble getting any infusion of new genetics, because that is not always necessary ANYhow, and if it is, they can swap among themselves.

I had missed that you were aiming at an Amish/Mennonite clientele. If that is the case, you may want to seriously rethink this. They either already have the birds they want (and for practical purposes are often raising modern high-performance production birds, not heritage breeds) or have the common sense to buy *a few*, once, and then continue happily onward breeding their own.

you can also transfer that thought to "back to basics" types of people, who don't want to buy from TSC or the local feed store or through the mail for various reasons.

THAT i think would be your best bet for a market -- people new to the whole chicken idea who have been doing a bunch of reading and have fancy impractical ideas and want to feel, as you do, that they are "helping conserve a rare breed". Even though they would *not* especially much be doing so

My thought in that part would be to provide the service. Essentially, a hatchery in and of itself, but my idea would be to keep birds who can raise their own next generation.

Ok, fine, it's just that this is a WHOLE big lot different than conservation breeding to preserve rare breeds.

Pat​

 

[MrChicken207]

I'm not completely intending to service an Amish/Mennonite clientele (there are only about a dozen families of the two combined groups within an hour car drive of me) It isn't practical. My primary purpose would be to kep a few heritage breeds, and the secondary would be to sell to local backyard keepers and small farmers. I've got a variety of short lists at the moment, most of them have Dark Cornish and Salmon Faverolles on them. Both are considered dual purpose breeds, although the Cornish don't produce nearly as many eggs, while they do have more meat. From what I've read on the two, they would grow at about the same rate. I do know that I would want to keep a breed that hatched and brooded their own eggs. I had toyed with the idea of breeding minorcas or leghorns to the point that they were doing that, but then realized that it would take decades, if I didn't OEG or some similar blood. Even if I did find a couple of birds in those breeds that were naturally broody.

I'm also thinking of a Dark egg breed (I like the looks of Welsumers and of BC Marans) as well as a Bantam breed (I keep changing my mind on which breed, there are so many good ones, but I'm partial to the d'anvers because that's what my grandparents raised).

 

[sammileah]

i want to go hog wild just cause i want so many dif kinds. i have RIR and barred Rocks now. i like my rocks but they all look the same. my hubby says no to ordering 25 ok ok. so now i'm stuck with what i can find at swaps and sales. so your plans on selling off your over stock could work.

 

[MrChicken207]

That's another reason why I want to just go all out and do it. I like so many different varieties. At the same time I was trying to figure out a reason to justify having so many birds (hence selling a few, as well as the eggs, to at least pay for some of the costs).

 

[roverjohn]

Quote:
Yes precisely, that is why it is valuable to have more people breeding a particular line of birds. The more birds there are, the less bottleneck-type and drift-type loss of genetic diversity there is.

So are you saying I can't put two "true" lines together and expect a "true" result? That would be odd if it is the case. And, if you really wanted to 'protect' some heritage breed why would you cull birds? Get them out in the general population and let them have at it. They may not be show quality but at least there are live birds out there for future generations of showers to breed if they want to make a new 'line' of SOP birds. Oh wait, the hatcheries are already doing that and getting birds to WAY more people than any breeder will ever do. So who's really conserving the breed?

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Yes precisely, that is why it is valuable to have more people breeding a particular line of birds. The more birds there are, the less bottleneck-type and drift-type loss of genetic diversity there is.

So are you saying I can't put two "true" lines together and expect a "true" result? That would be odd if it is the case.

No no, obviously you can cross good lines together (although what the outcome will be is a little unpredictable, it will still be essentially that breed)

What I'm saying is exactly the opposite -- two peoples' lines *from the same original source* will not be identical after X generations. Each line will have diverged a bit. Thus it is NOT pointless or duplicative to have multiple people raising birds from the same original source, not at all. It is *useful*.

And, if you really wanted to 'protect' some heritage breed why would you cull birds? Get them out in the general population and let them have at it.

No, this is not preserving a breed, this is encouraging random drift and selection for unintended traits. You need to look at how genetics and breed conservation ACTUALLY WORKS, in the real world not in your thought experiments. If you do not cull pretty strictly in poultry (and reasonably much in other kinds of animals, as well), you end up with the population going off in various weird ways that are not true to the original gene pool you were trying to preserve.

In the real world -- empirically speaking -- if you look at what ACTUALLY HAPPENS when people do what you're describing, breed everything and don't cull -- you end up with a population that is no longer representative of the original gene pool or original breed, and is likely to have lost a number of important characteristics. In fact what you end up with is an especially-inferior version of hatchery birds (since hatchery birds are at least selected for some reasonable degree of health and fertility/laying traits).

This is not a theory thing, this is a matter of how it observably works.

You need to remember that there is ALWAYS selection going on (be it natural or artificial or both, and be it intentional or just due to circumstances; and likewise ALWAYS drift going on, especially in a small breeder-size population. These do not generally work in your favor (especially in the domestic chicken). If you don't constantly work against them, things come apart fairly quickly and cannot necessarily be reconstructed. (That is the whole REASON why conservation breeding matters).

Pat​

 

[Chook-A-Holic]

I've been where you are talking about going. I can tell you this, It's very easy to get overwhelmed. The energy needed alone to take care of that many birds will be tremendous. It was very enjoyable at first but quickly became a second full time job after getting home from the first. Also keep in mind that it is everyday no matter how sick you may be or how you feel. I had around 50 that turned into about 500 over a 4yr period and to top that off we(myself, wife, friends) rescued 600 from an egg farm and rehabilitated/re-homed them over a period of the next 3 years. Talk about a total burnout. I now try to keep it to one breed with a max of 75 to 80 birds. As of now I have 50 Heritage RIR's and the DW is wanting her own flock of Buff Silkies. But I will dare not have several hundred birds ever again. I'm not trying to discourage you, just warning you. This is not even taking the feed bill and the cost of housing/upkeep into account.