Golden Salmon Marans

[3riverschick]

Question: since gs are pure wild type, they are very much like Welsumer, light brown leghorn, or red and silver dorking? Wels have an Mh though, yes? So gs are genetically closer then to leghorns and dorkings? Since it is nearly impossible to get a gs marans, how hard would it be to re-create it? Would that an option?

Almost impossible by going outside the breed. The Welly cross has been done before .
What a mess. Mh is a very sticky gene to try and breed out. I think your best bet would be to rely on the sex linked gold silver cross. With correct selection you cold have Golden Salmon in 3 generations. The trick is to pick birds which don't carry autosomal red or Mh gene. They are useless in a winnowing program. You will not be able to select it out. Instead you will end up polluting your whole gene pool. If you can find a true Golden Salmon hen and a Silver Salmon male. Start there. Golden Salmon males are notoriously unreliable because they can hide melanizers or MH or autosomal red in their dark coloring. You only see the problem once you hatch chicks from them. Remember Golden Salmon breeding is the art of winnowing. Down to the most basic color genes. If you see any hint of red on the male Silver Salmon shoulders or if his white isn't startlingly pure, don't use him There is red hiding in there somewhere. There is a lady in Grayling, Michigan who has a Golden Salmon flock which is reputed to be pure. I never could get her to share but maybe she has changed her mind now. You might also try Canada. There was a company in Ontario which imported Golden Salmon years ago. They went out of business years ago, but the birds went somewhere. Maybe they are in a flock somewhere? It is easy to bring birds and eggs down from Canada.
Best,
Karen

 

[Lisa Harmon]

Okay, yes, then its best to stay with the bloodline that you mentioned before the produces btbm and gs. I will email you--thank you for replying!

 

[3riverschick]

~~There is a lady named Arla Meininger (sp?) in Grayling, Michigan who has a Golden Salmon flock which is reputed to be pure. I never could get her to share but maybe she has changed her mind now.

 

[3riverschick]

If you are working with Golden Salmon or Silver Salmon
Marans you should seriously read this pithy 55 page book.
The author was a legendary poultryman. He was Danne Honour's
uncle's uncle. The apple sure didn't fall far from the tree there.
One of the author's gifts was to make complicated genetics simple
for the layman. He used to travel around to the shows and sit
discussing those topics with folks. Note the topics in this book
are breeding laws. Not opinions or theory. They are proven
cause and effect. GS and SS Marans are stippled varieties.
Read it online for free:
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls.
By Wetherell Henry. Card ( nickname: Wid )
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[JennieRD]

New to this thread, but over the last several weeks as I've watched my Wheaten Maran's grow to there present 10 weeks of age. It became obvious what was suppose to be all Wheaten, are actually Wheaten, Black Tailed Buff, and surprisingly two GS Marans pullets. There is no mistaking them, I've contacted the breeder and am waiting to hear from him. Is it possible to obtain the mutated gene of the Golden Salmon by unintentional means of crossing the BTB, and the Wheaten?

Neither have the flaw of the reddish chest, both have the partridge feathering, and the golden tint on their necks. The dorsal stripe is vague, but present and both have feathered legs. I guess my first question is the mutation possible, second, any recommendation to improving the golden tone.

 

[pawtraitart]

New to this thread, but over the last several weeks as I've watched my Wheaten Maran's grow to there present 10 weeks of age. It became obvious what was suppose to be all Wheaten, are actually Wheaten, Black Tailed Buff, and surprisingly two GS Marans pullets. There is no mistaking them, I've contacted the breeder and am waiting to hear from him. Is it possible to obtain the mutated gene of the Golden Salmon by unintentional means of crossing the BTB, and the Wheaten?

Neither have the flaw of the reddish chest, both have the partridge feathering, and the golden tint on their necks. The dorsal stripe is vague, but present and both have feathered legs. I guess my first question is the mutation possible, second, any recommendation to improving the golden tone.

It is possible to get birds that look like one variety or another but are genetically incorrect and won't breed true. You have to do single mating to decode the makeup of any given bird to unravel the mess. For example, most of the "btb" that I've seen out of GS projects don't carry the correct e allele, but other than some smokyness the adults appear to be correct BTB.

 

[JennieRD]

I did hear back from the breeder. He did not admit he was working on a GSM project, but did not deny it. I think I ended up with his project eggs, he was kind enough to replace my whole order in full. As soon as his hens start laying again he was so nice about it I don't think he wants too many to know about his GSM so I'll keep his name to myself.

The cockerels and pulletts both have eye flaws there more yellow than pumpkin, there combs have sways in them, and the cockerels have black wing tips, more like the black tailed buffs

I understand what your saying, I see the flaws I'll be able to tell more when the get older. I don't know a whole lot about GSM but I'll keep studying it. He obviously has done a lot of work, there so close. I'll try to take some pics if you wouldn't mind voicing your opinion! I'll take them and post them in the mornng.

 

[3riverschick]

Golden Salmon Marans are the same as Black Breasted Red. They are not mutated. Someone has misinformed you. They are on the e+ allele. They carry the gold gene only. Being e+/e+ s+/s+ (s+/s-). In other words, when you winnow out all the other colors and modifiers, then you end up with Golden Salmon. The minute you split the allele, that is, e+ plus /(any other allele), Golden Salmon disappears. The minute you also allow any other color gene or modifier to get in, Golden Salmon disappears. Brian Reeder has a but of a different view on this that I am still considering whether to accept. The chick down is absolutely definitive for Golden Salmon. If it doesn't look like it, then there is something else in there and you don't have Golden Salmon. You have a corrupted genome. Take a look at the down pics of the Old English Game bantams in Black Breasted Red and you will know what you should be seeing.
Golden Salmon is a stippled variety. The descriptive correct name is the Black Breasted Red cock with the stippled hen with the salmon colored breast.
Here is some genetic literature I put together about the color:
http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/geneticliterature.htm
Here is a photo essay of Alvin a lovely Golden Salmon colored cock I one owned. Actually, his genome is not Golden Salmon at all as he is split e+/eb. But his color is lovely Golden Salmon. http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/apps/photos/
Also read the 1st page of this thread.
Best,
Karen.
Waterford English Light Sussex'
former Director of Archives, Marans of America Club.

 

[JennieRD]

Golden Salmon Marans are the same as Black Breasted Red. They are not mutated. Someone has misinformed you. They are on the e+ allele. They carry the gold gene only. Being e+/e+ s+/s+ (s+/s-). In other words, when you winnow out all the other colors and modifiers, then you end up with Golden Salmon. The minute you split the allele, that is, e+ plus /(any other allele), Golden Salmon disappears. The minute you also allow any other color gene or modifier to get in, Golden Salmon disappears. Brian Reeder has a but of a different view on this that I am still considering whether to accept. The chick down is absolutely definitive for Golden Salmon. If it doesn't look like it, then there is something else in there and you don't have Golden Salmon. You have a corrupted genome. Take a look at the down pics of the Old English Game bantams in Black Breasted Red and you will know what you should be seeing.
Golden Salmon is a stippled variety. The descriptive correct name is the Black Breasted Red cock with the stippled hen with the salmon colored breast.
Here is some genetic literature I put together about the color:
http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/geneticliterature.htm
Here is a photo essay of Alvin a lovely Golden Salmon colored cock I one owned. Actually, his genome is not Golden Salmon at all as he is split e+/eb. But his color is lovely Golden Salmon. http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/apps/photos/
Also read the 1st page of this thread.
Best,
Karen.
Waterford English Light Sussex'
former Director of Archives, Marans of America Club.

Maybe I misphrased what I meant, I seem to do that a lot on this site, I found a reference to the Golden Salmon, which stated "the real genetic "partridge" variety is a mutation which should not be confused. It comes from another genetic family completely different from the Silver and Golden families."

This is what I was trying to figure out, whether theses were true GSM or a partridge variety. I took photos but lighting is terrible, so I am still trying to get them. Thank you for the links, they will help a lot. Ill get back as soon as I can take a few good color photos.

 

[3riverschick]

Maybe I misphrased what I meant, I seem to do that a lot on this site, I found a reference to the Golden Salmon, which stated "the real genetic "partridge" variety is a mutation which should not be confused. It comes from another genetic family completely different from the Silver and Golden families."

This is what I was trying to figure out, whether theses were true GSM or a partridge variety. I took photos but lighting is terrible, so I am still trying to get them. Thank you for the links, they will help a lot. Ill get back as soon as I can take a few good color photos.

Yes, I am familiar wit that quote. They are stating that eb (brown) is called partridge and it is not to be confused with e+ (Golden Salmon). Do you have pics of the birds?
Best,
karen