Goodbye chickies...one snoopy neighbor and an (often defunct) HOA letter

[sanmar4chickens]

Cedar Park Texas? ...wishing everything works out for your group. I live near Cedar Park.

 

[MyPretties]

Cedar Park Texas? ...wishing everything works out for your group. I live near Cedar Park.

Wow Sanmar4, if you are close to Cedar Park, join our Chickens for Change in Cedar Park and help us fight the ordinance requiring 1 acre for ONE little chicken! THEN everyone will have to do what this thread is all about and get the HOA to amend the bylaws. In our case I think there are enough pro-chicken people to make it happen. My toxic neighbor who reported me hopefully won't show up to the next meeting. Those that do vote and if one isn't present to vote against something, too bad. Maybe that is the case for the HOA being discussed. I just don't get all this chicken hating!

 

[sanmar4chickens]

I can join. Would it help? I don't have residence in Cedar Park. I'm over here by Lake Travis.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Hey also, does anyone know.
If a homeowner asks the treasurer for a list of who is paid up and who isn't...is she required to give me the information?
or do people have privacy rights for that information?
People have generally thought it's private information, but I'm thinking the bylaws say the books should be available to view during "regular business hours"...HA! whatever that means in a volunteer homeowners association.
side note: they don't check if people are up to date on their dues before they vote them in to an office.
the old treasurer told me he fixed an error in the records, that said he hadn't paid, when he was sure he had....so basically his lot was behind on dues and he was voted to be treasurer because no one else would do it and he "fixed it" (his).

State laws make a difference, so you need to look at yours. In Arizona that is privileged information and not releasable to non-board members. The total amount of delinquent monies or the number of lots that are delinquent is not privileged. It is worth the association's time and $$$ to pay an accountant (and not the least expensive!) to send out statements and receive and deposit assessment payments, correct inaccuracies (with documented proof) and even pay bills. I was on our board for 6 years and KNOW what a nightmare keeping the books can be. You can still be a self managed HOA and hire some of the work out, and an accountant is the MOST IMPORTANT job to hire out. There will still be a treasurer to provide oversight and direction (as does the whole board).

The board is legally responsible for any discrepancies in the records, and if things are not done in a business-like manner, Officer/Director's insurance coverage likely would not pay, meaning that the individual is at personal financial risk in the case of legal action.

There is a name for cooking the books for one's own gain: embezzlement. Now it is possible that there was an error and the old treasurer had indeed paid, but he (and the association) REALLY need to make sure that that payment is well-documented.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I don;t know? But, they do petitions for just about everything! LOL Recalls, etc. If everyone in the neighborhood doesn't have a problem with chicken keeping, why would the HOA be against it??? Majority rules, or at least it should!

If it is a CC&R Change, it usually takes 67 or 75 percent vote to approval changes, not a simple majority. However, a petition by a specified percentge (as defined in CC&Rs, Bylaws or state statute) is the way to force an issue to a vote.

 

[jk9chicks]

ok, so for a petition, It doesn't use the word petition, but according to the CCRS/bylaws, in order to call special meetings, we would need 1/4 of voting members. Or the pres. OR the trustees could also call one....
BUT without knowing who can vote? How do we know if I have 1/4 of the voting members?....see how this doesn't make sense?
If the board says, I can't know who is paid and voting....they can just SAY I don't have 1/4.

So, I am pretty sure, when it says in the CCRs, that the books should be avaliable to inspection, I think I am within my rights to view that information.
AND I think if they have banned someone, from voting for nonpayment, they should have notified them in writing.

a CCR change would take 75% for us, unless our state (Washington) has a different opinion (in which case, it could be less). But again< I don't know if they can ban people from voting for amending purposes and if so, if I only need 75% of those who can vote...creates a different dynamic.

I am compiling a list of questions to ask an attorney. I want to know my rights and my neighbors rights.

If a majority doesn't want chickens, that is fine, we won't get them while we live here....I won't fight the "pet chicken" thing. Even though they are pets to us. I just don't have the time or energy right now.
But I know there are others here who are interested and I hope to find out just how close we are to amending. this may take a year or two (or never as one neighbor stated disbelief in getting 75%).
But for now I will try to be optimistic.
I would love to sell, but it's not a good time for us.

A couple days ago, I found out which roo the people who want my chickies want. So, I have two boys to re-home or take to the butcher....one pure white and one barred rock, I really don't want to have them butchered (I am glad they wanted one though...they wanted my gold star, he is the tallest and I think he is top of the peck right now, though the white one is still a contender...the BR has feet problems and just a sweeter personality...so not as good of a protection as a roo I guess...

 

[jk9chicks]

Quote:

I don;t know? But, they do petitions for just about everything! LOL Recalls, etc. If everyone in the neighborhood doesn't have a problem with chicken keeping, why would the HOA be against it??? Majority rules, or at least it should!

Because in an HOA, ONE person can ruin it.
I have talked to 8 homeowner on my street and 1 on the perpendicular street and us (that makes 10) that are ok with us having chickens.
And it took just ONE on the next street over, that complained.

The HOA could potentially be sued by that ONE person, if they didn't ask me to removed them...
I don't want to cause the board or the trustees more headache then this ONE neighbor (and I) have already caused.

Until I can get 75% that will vote FOR our chickens ....that ONE neighbor is in control...for the moment.

Until one person cares an awful lot and changes others in a positive light (think the LORAX) there won't be change for the better.

No, it doesn't quite seem fair...that one neighbor would/could do that, but I did sign those CCRs, even if I hadn't understood how crazy it would be to challenge them.
And until we have a change, I will not be fighting the HOA and my good neighbors just because of one cranky snoopy neighbor.

I should also say, there is one neighbor, on the next street over, that has been reasonable to talk to, but who also does not want chickens.

So, it's 10 to 2 in the "ok for chickens" range so far.
Only I am not sure how many of the 10 CAN or WOULD vote yes to formally amend and letting anyone have chickens, without some rules as to how things are kept (clean, food stored, chickens contained, not free run, etc.)

BUT 10-2 gives me hope, so far.

I will hopefully update as I learn more.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

ok, so for a petition, It doesn't use the word petition, but according to the CCRS/bylaws, in order to call special meetings, we would need 1/4 of voting members. Or the pres. OR the trustees could also call one....
BUT without knowing who can vote? How do we know if I have 1/4 of the voting members?....see how this doesn't make sense?
If the board says, I can't know who is paid and voting....they can just SAY I don't have 1/4.

So, I am pretty sure, when it says in the CCRs, that the books should be avaliable to inspection, I think I am within my rights to view that information.
AND I think if they have banned someone, from voting for nonpayment, they should have notified them in writing.

a CCR change would take 75% for us, unless our state (Washington) has a different opinion (in which case, it could be less). But again< I don't know if they can ban people from voting for amending purposes and if so, if I only need 75% of those who can vote...creates a different dynamic.

I am compiling a list of questions to ask an attorney. I want to know my rights and my neighbors rights.

If a majority doesn't want chickens, that is fine, we won't get them while we live here....I won't fight the "pet chicken" thing. Even though they are pets to us. I just don't have the time or energy right now.
But I know there are others here who are interested and I hope to find out just how close we are to amending. this may take a year or two (or never as one neighbor stated disbelief in getting 75%).
But for now I will try to be optimistic.
I would love to sell, but it's not a good time for us.

A couple days ago, I found out which roo the people who want my chickies want. So, I have two boys to re-home or take to the butcher....one pure white and one barred rock, I really don't want to have them butchered (I am glad they wanted one though...they wanted my gold star, he is the tallest and I think he is top of the peck right now, though the white one is still a contender...the BR has feet problems and just a sweeter personality...so not as good of a protection as a roo I guess...

Well, when you gather signatures, you can ask if they are current on dues...or just assume that everyone is and get more than the 25% needed. Also, consider running for the board. There is no place you can better influence what the HOA does and does not do for you neighborhood as being on the board.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Rules should regulate the nuisance, not its cause. If you are looking at amending, consider the entire document and things that ought to be changed. Does it meet current city and state laws? Are there other ways that it could be opened up to give more freedom to the members without negative impact? How about looking at preventing the fiasco that y'all already went through when the board didn't take care of business....

 

[jk9chicks]

Rules should regulate the nuisance, not its cause. If you are looking at amending, consider the entire document and things that ought to be changed. Does it meet current city and state laws? Are there other ways that it could be opened up to give more freedom to the members without negative impact? How about looking at preventing the fiasco that y'all already went through when the board didn't take care of business....

It's not simply a nuisance issue...the noise level is no where near the level the dogs around here give.
It's the fear factor.
Both of my no neighbors are scared of more wildlife. I think that is the main concern.
The one snoopy neighbor, (besides being nosey and controling), is afraid of bears.
The other, reasonable nice neighbor, has lost multiple cats to either raccoon or fox in the greenbelt, (and to mean neighborhood dogs in their front yard right in front of them-yikes, the dogs were caught and had to be put down).
So, it's not just noise/smell nuisance issue...it's mostly the fear of wild animals that are ALREADY here.
I understand the concern, but I don't want to live in fear. (I guess neither do they?) And bringing chicken in, creates more fear for them?
even though it's already happening...

Amending the entire document would take a lot of time....probably costly too.
Who would pay for it? The association doesn't have a ton of money, we would have to vote to pay for a whole re-write.
There are some good rules, but the verbage is confusing sometimes. And I don't know if it meets current city and state laws.
I will add that to my list of questions.

I was thinking of just adding an addendum?

And I don't want to be on the board, EVER, since it's dufunct.
The board doesn't know what it's doing...they guess if there is a quorum and basically pass whatever they want to. It's a mess I didn't make and don't want to clean up (I'm not sure it can be fixed without outside help).
They are only barely functioning enough to make sure the street lights get paid for, and to take care of the trees in the greenbelt, if they become a threat to any of the houses AND....I guess...to stop people from having chickens! (they said they've had two other homeowners also get rid of chickens, it's an epidemic!!!).

Oh, and they can't even collect dues properly!!!
They forget to send out statements!
I've probably had 1 actual statement in 6 years time.
I don't want to be a bigger part of that....I don't understand the rules well enough to have the responsibility to use and enforce them fairly. It's a mess.